If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.
Special Thanks To:
Aaron Holmes
Aaron Wheeler
Adam Horden
Alan Scrimgeour
Andre
Andrew Haynes
Anonymous000
asabase
Austin Weil
barney
Barry
Bert Hickman
Bill Kukowski
Blitzorn
Brandon Paradelas
Bruce Bowling
BubeeMike
Byong Park
Cesiumsponge
Chris F.
Chris Hooper
Corey Worthington
Derek Woodroffe
Dalus
Dan Strother
Daniel Davis
Daniel Uhrenholt
datasheetarchive
Dave Billington
Dave Marshall
David F.
Dennis Rogers
drelectrix
Dr. John Gudenas
Dr. Spark
E.TexasTesla
eastvoltresearch
Eirik Taylor
Erik Dyakov
Erlend^SE
Finn Hammer
Firebug24k
GalliumMan
Gary Peterson
George Slade
GhostNull
Gordon Mcknight
Graham Armitage
Grant
GreySoul
Henry H
IamSmooth
In memory of Leo Powning
Jacob Cash
James Howells
James Pawson
Jeff Greenfield
Jeff Thomas
Jesse Frost
Jim Mitchell
jlr134
Joe Mastroianni
John Forcina
John Oberg
John Willcutt
Jon Newcomb
klugesmith
Leslie Wright
Lutz Hoffman
Mads Barnkob
Martin King
Mats Karlsson
Matt Gibson
Matthew Guidry
mbd
Michael D'Angelo
Mikkel
mileswaldron
mister_rf
Neil Foster
Nick de Smith
Nick Soroka
nicklenorp
Nik
Norman Stanley
Patrick Coleman
Paul Brodie
Paul Jordan
Paul Montgomery
Ped
Peter Krogen
Peter Terren
PhilGood
Richard Feldman
Robert Bush
Royce Bailey
Scott Fusare
Scott Newman
smiffy
Stella
Steven Busic
Steve Conner
Steve Jones
Steve Ward
Sulaiman
Thomas Coyle
Thomas A. Wallace
Thomas W
Timo
Torch
Ulf Jonsson
vasil
Vaxian
vladi mazzilli
wastehl
Weston
William Kim
William N.
William Stehl
Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
South African fossils could be new hominid species By Jonathan Amos Science correspondent, BBC News
The remarkable remains of two ancient human-like creatures (hominids) have been found in South Africa.
The fossils of a female adult and a juvenile male - perhaps mother and son - are just under two million years old.
They were uncovered in cave deposits at Malapa not far from Johannesburg.
Researchers tell the journal Science that the creatures fill an important gap between older hominids and the group of more modern species known as Homo, which includes our own kind.
The team has assigned the name Australopithecus sediba to their finds.
"It's at the point where we transition from an ape that walks on two legs to, effectively, us," lead scientist Professor Lee Berger of the University of the Witwatersrand told BBC News.
"I think that probably everyone is aware that this period of time - that period between 1.8 and just over two million years [ago] - is one of the most poorly represented in the entire early hominid fossil record. You're talking about a very small, very fragmentary record," he explained.
Rapid burial
Many scientists regard the Australopithecines as being directly ancestral to Homo but the precise placement of A. sediba in the human family tree is already proving controversial, with some scientists arguing the species may well be a Homo itself.
The Malapa creatures lived right on the cusp of the emergence of Homo species. Indeed, there are some fossils from East Africa thought to be Homo that are slightly older than the new specimens.
A. sediba has a fascinating mix of features - some archaic, some modern.
I called my dad over and about five metres away he started swearing, and I was like 'what did I do wrong?' and he's like, 'nothing, nothing - you found a hominid' Matthew Berger
Its small teeth, projecting nose, very advanced pelvis, and long legs throw forward to more modern forms. And yet its very long arms and small brain case might echo the much older Australopithecine group to which Professor Berger and colleagues have assigned it.
The Malapa fossils were found within a metre or so of each other, suggesting they died at the same time or very soon after one another. It is entirely possible they were mother and son, says Professor Berger's group. At the very least, it seem reasonable to assume they knew each other and belonged to the same troupe, the team adds.
The scientists speculate the creatures either fell into the cave complex or became stuck in it. It is likely their bodies were then swept into an underground lake or pool, perhaps during a rainstorm.
Their bones were laid down with the remains of other dead animals, including a sabre-toothed cat, antelope, mice and rabbits. The fact that none of the bodies appear to have been scavenged indicates that all died suddenly and were entombed rapidly.
"We think that there must have been some sort of calamity taking place at the time that caused all of these fossils to come down together into the cave where they got trapped and ultimately buried," said team-member Professor Paul Dirks from James Cook University in Queensland, Australia.
All were preserved in the hard calcified clastic sediment that formed at the bottom of a pool of water.
Vigorous debate about the significance of finds in the field of palaeoanthropology is common, and A. sediba has already generated much comment within the scientific community.
Professor Colin Groves, from the Australian National University, said his assessment of the Malapa hominids led him to conclude that they were actually a new species of Homo, not Australopithecus.
"In fact, the authors themselves pointed to certain similarities with early Homo, seeming even to admit that the predominance of its features were with Homo, only the small cranial capacity being really an "australopithecine" feature," he commented.
"But we now know of [the Indonesian 'Hobbit' species] Homo floresiensis with the cranial capacity more or less the same as the new species."
The richness of the fossil finds means the Malapa cave complex is likely to keep scientists busy for many years.
In addition to the two hominids reported in the journal Science, the remains of two further individuals are in the process of excavation.
The site was found by the team thanks to the "virtual globe" software Google Earth, which allowed the group to map and visualise the most promising fossil grounds in the World Heritage Site.
The first discovery of A. sediba remains was made in August 2008. The very first bone was picked up by Professor Berger's nine-year-old son, Matthew.
"I turned the rock over and I saw the clavicle sticking out - that's the collar bone. I didn't know what it was at first; I thought it was just an antelope," the youngster told BBC News.
"So I called my dad over and about five metres away he started swearing, and I was like 'what did I do wrong?' and he's like, 'nothing, nothing - you found a hominid'."
The scientists say they will hold a competition in South Africa to give the juvenile specimen a name, to help people identify better with the species, just as they can with the 3.2-million-year-old Australopithecus afarensis creature found in Ethiopia and known to the world simply as "Lucy".
The name "sediba" means "fountain" or "wellspring" in the Sesotho language spoken in South Africa
Registered Member #2123
Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312
Cool. Read an abbreviated version of this article this morning. I guess we'll have to wait a few years for the full report.
Many years ago I once had a religious fanatic tell me that fossils were created by Satan to confuse the righteous. Hopefully, sometime in the not-too-distant future this mentality will die out.
Registered Member #99
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637
MinorityCarrier wrote ...
Cool. Read an abbreviated version of this article this morning. I guess we'll have to wait a few years for the full report.
Many years ago I once had a religious fanatic tell me that fossils were created by Satan to confuse the righteous. Hopefully, sometime in the not-too-distant future this mentality will die out.
Hey! I am a "religious fanatic" here and "I" hope the "your the one whose wrong" mentality goes away for BOTH sides. Evolutionists will never be able to prove their theory, nor can religious people. Both need to quit trying to tell the other side they are wrong. Why are christians any more wrong than evolutionists? Both seem content that their "proof" is legit, yet neither can fullfill the requirements to push a theory into a fact.
Id appreciate the tone against religious people, toned down. Remember, you look just a foolish in your opponents eyes seeing as neither attempt to sway the other with anything the other can relate to. Thank you, Matt
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
MinorityCarrier wrote ...
Many years ago I once had a religious fanatic tell me that fossils were created by Satan to confuse the righteous. Hopefully, sometime in the not-too-distant future this mentality will die out.
I've heard tell of a Creationist museum, where a tableau shows Adam and Eve sheltering in a cave, whilst tyrannosaurids gnash their teeth and stomp across the volcanic landscape behind them.
Registered Member #2123
Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312
I take it this is a different Malapa cave system then the "Cradle Of Humanity" cave, the articles aren't clear. Must have been exciting for that kid.
The Creationist Museums showing things like Triceratops with riding saddles, Adam and Eve with a pet Stegosaurus, etc, make America the laughing stock of scientific nations. But I hope someday we'll catch up to nations like Sweden.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
MinorityCarrier wrote ...
I take it this is a different Malapa cave system then the "Cradle Of Humanity" cave, the articles aren't clear. Must have been exciting for that kid.
The so-called Cradle of Humankind is an area of roughly 50,000 hectares characterised by numerous dolomite caves. Hominid fossils have been discovered in about forty of them so far, with promise of more to come.
See Fossil Hominid Sites of Sterkfontein, Swartkrans, Kromdraai, and Environs on the UNESCO site here:
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.