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Registered Member #2161
Joined: Fri Jun 05 2009, 03:36PM
Location:
Posts: 247
Hello,
I have some IGBT bricks on hand for which I cannot find the datasheet. Being pampered by the digital age of easy datasheet access, I cannot get myself to work with them until I have the official datasheet on hand. Therefore I propose a mystery game. The member who can find me the official datasheet will be rewarded with a 100A 1200V Toshiba IGBT brick(62mm package), mind you it will not be easy, to be honest I do not know how one could get a hold of the datasheet without some contacts in either SIEMENS, EUPEC(while it still existed) or Infineon.
This is the IGBT brick, the BSM150GB120DN11:
The package of the IGBT is the generally widely used 62mm package. The IGBT differs from the regular package through its blue cover and terminal spacing.
From what I have been able to gather, these bricks were most likely manufactured by EUPEC for SIEMENS. In my quest for the datasheet, I have contacted both Infineon and SIEMENS, though most likely I contacted the wrong address as I still do not have the info I am looking for. I have spent quite some time searching for this datasheet and have yet to get any good leads. Of course the main problem with the standard procedure of just asking the manufacturer for a datasheet, is that the presumed manufacturer (EUPEC) has long since been bought by Infineon.
It is my opinion that this brick is more than likely just a repackaged/re-badged version of the BSM150GB120DN2 IGBT module. Though as I have not been able to neither confirm nor disprove my hunch I have decided to start this thread in the hopes that someone reading this forum has industry contacts in the aforementioned companies.
If anyone has any good leads or access to datasheets of OEM components and help would be greatly appreciated.
Registered Member #30
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
Ignore all of the part number except the "DN11". That identifies the kind of silicon dice used inside. Some are ultrafast, some are slow but low-loss, etc.
If you can find any datasheet for any other module ending in DN11, and ideally having the same voltage rating, then the characteristics in that datasheet should apply.
So IMO, it's not a repackaged whatever-DN2, because DN2 identifies a different die type.
Rule of thumb: If you got it cheap on Ebay or surplus, it's slow. Fast brick IGBTs only came out recently and haven't reached the used/surplus market yet.
As far as I know, Semikron, Eupec, Siemens (and Infineon, the new name for Siemens' semiconductor business) all just packaged the same IGBT dice from Motorola (now ON Semi)
Registered Member #2161
Joined: Fri Jun 05 2009, 03:36PM
Location:
Posts: 247
Steve McConner wrote ...
Rule of thumb: If you got it cheap on Ebay or surplus, it's slow. Fast brick IGBTs only came out recently and haven't reached the used/surplus market yet.
As far as I know, Semikron, Eupec, Siemens (and Infineon, the new name for Siemens' semiconductor business) all just packaged the same IGBT dice from Motorola (now ON Semi)
Haha, fast IGBT brick that's and oxymoron in itself. They have improved greatly through the generations but still calling them fast is a bit of a stretch even for marketing. :D
I have no delusions about the running these igbts at 200khz, though I would love it as I already have a 200khz secondary laying around. ;) I am planning on something in the 50kHz region to keep everything happy.
Thanks for the info on the dies, I was not aware that everyone was using Motorola dies. Though after thinking it over, I too was becoming a bit sceptical about these being repacked DN2's. Mainly because also noticed DN2 SIEMENS datasheets.
Going by Nicko's link (thanks much appreciated and very useful!)
Basically it is fully possible that these are GEN1 devices, as nicko suggested....or slower than slow.
The chart in Nickos link rules out the IGBT being a repackaged BSM150GB120DLC (also found siemens DLC datasheets anyway). Leaving only that it may be a repackaged FF150R12KS4 (GEN2 Fast...haha I wish.), or just GEN1.
Based on their appearance my opinion (0.02) is that they are not gen1 as I have a few Gen1 bricks around and you can almost see by their design that they are of an earlier generation. By this I mean mainly by their mounting, the Gen1s 62mm package I have seen didn't come with the brass studs and a plastic moulding "covering" the heatspreader.
The main part that has been bugging me, is that I have never seen a 62mm package with the top design of this brick, the mounting "pads" usually cover on 20mm of the package instead of the whole length.
Nicko: Have you done any testing on your bricks?
The "mystery" continues. I will continue with the DN11 lead that I was put on. But I am quite pissed that this IGBT doesn't have a datasheet anywhere. I mean it is not 30 years old after all even if its Gen1.
Registered Member #2161
Joined: Fri Jun 05 2009, 03:36PM
Location:
Posts: 247
brtaman wrote ...
Steve McConner wrote ...
Rule of thumb: If you got it cheap on Ebay or surplus, it's slow. Fast brick IGBTs only came out recently and haven't reached the used/surplus market yet.
As far as I know, Semikron, Eupec, Siemens (and Infineon, the new name for Siemens' semiconductor business) all just packaged the same IGBT dice from Motorola (now ON Semi)
Haha, fast IGBT brick that's and oxymoron in itself. They have improved greatly through the generations but still calling them fast is a bit of a stretch even for marketing. :D
I have no delusions about the running these igbts at 200khz, though I would love it as I already have a 200khz secondary laying around. ;) I am planning on something in the 50kHz region to keep everything happy.
Thanks for the info on the dies, I was not aware that everyone was using Motorola dies. Though after thinking it over, I too was becoming a bit sceptical about these being repacked DN2's. Mainly because also noticed DN2 SIEMENS datasheets.
Going by Nicko's link (thanks much appreciated and very useful!)
Basically it is fully possible that these are GEN1 devices, as nicko suggested....or slower than slow.
The chart in Nickos link rules out the IGBT being a repackaged BSM150GB120DLC (also found siemens DLC datasheets anyway). Leaving only that it may be a repackaged FF150R12KS4 (GEN2 Fast...haha I wish.), or just GEN1 (probably).
Based on their appearance my opinion (0.02) is that they are not gen1 as I have a few Gen1 bricks around and you can almost see by their design that they are of an earlier generation. By this I mean mainly by their mounting, the Gen1s 62mm package I have seen didn't come with the brass studs and a plastic moulding "covering" the heatspreader.
The main part that has been bugging me, is that I have never seen a 62mm package with the top design of this brick, the mounting "pads" usually cover on 20mm of the package instead of the whole length.
Nicko: Have you done any testing on your bricks?
The "mystery" continues. I will continue with the DN11 lead that I was put on. But I am quite angry that this IGBT doesn't have a datasheet anywhere. I mean it is not 30 years old after all even if its Gen1. Though I am starting to think that this is indeed a GEN1.
Registered Member #1334
Joined: Tue Feb 19 2008, 04:37PM
Location: Nr. London, UK
Posts: 615
Well, here's the BSM150GB120DN2 datasheet. I suspect now that the D11 is a customer-specific package. Mine look identical to yours, but I note the date code on mine is 9616 and yours looks like 9533, so using a trivial interpretation, these are likely to be about 15 years old.
Not done any testing yet - just happen to have 6 of them sitting around (ex-equipment). Nice little half-bridge, sure to come in useful... ]bsm150gb120dn2.pdf[/file]
Registered Member #2298
Joined: Sat Aug 15 2009, 08:16PM
Location: ex UK, now Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 35
Steve McConner wrote ...
Rule of thumb: If you got it cheap on Ebay or surplus, it's slow. Fast brick IGBTs only came out recently and haven't reached the used/surplus market yet.
Any more details about the new fast bricks, Steve? How recent is recent?
Registered Member #30
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
Well, I'm mostly familiar with the Semikron bricks. Look at this document:
They quote the 3 series as being the "standard series", and the 5 series as ultrafast.
You can pick up used 123s (standard speed, 1200V) for about 20 dollars each any day of the week (I had about half a dozen) but just try finding a 125.
The Powerex H series are about equivalent in speed to the Semikron 3 series. It's probably unfair to say that they're "slow", since the low-loss ones (4 series) are slower still. "Regular speed" would be more like it, but that's regular in brick terms. It's painfully slow compared to the TO247 and miniblock IGBTs we use in smaller coils.
Registered Member #2161
Joined: Fri Jun 05 2009, 03:36PM
Location:
Posts: 247
Mr. Conner: Where did you pick them up at that price? (ebay US?)
Most of the bricks, that I have on hand are "hand me downs" from an EE who has called it quits in power electronics. I have been eyeing semikron for quite a while now and to be honest I was hoping they would be in the package I received.
I guess I have to take back what I said about brick speed the 125Ds are quite zippy.
BTW, while rummaging through your site I noticed you ride a stinky? Me to actually, the 2005 army green one, last before the "facelift", mine is basically still stock except I took off the second drive gear and added a Roox rollercoaster chain guide and I got rid of the damn shimano chain, which snapped mid run. Can't wait, anyday now snow will have gone and I will be riding again.
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IGBT Mystery
They have improved greatly through the generations but still calling them fast is a bit of a stretch even for marketing. :D
I will continue with the DN11 lead that I was put on. But I am quite pissed that this IGBT doesn't have a datasheet anywhere. I mean it is not 30 years old after all even if its Gen1.
