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New scientist article on mini black holes

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LAN_403

Conundrum

Thu Dec 28 2006, 04:18PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

This is interesting, seems that some of the higher energy types of ball lightning may actually be
miniature black holes.

see here also

Can anyone get the full text of this article?
Thanks, -A

Simon

Thu Dec 28 2006, 11:18PM

Registered Member #32 Joined: Sat Feb 04 2006, 08:58AM
Location: Australia
Posts: 549

I've read that article. Most of it is extremely speculative, smells dodgy and shouldn't be taken very seriously but the GEA idea is interesting (although still very speculative and possibly dodgy).

Conundrum

Thu Dec 28 2006, 11:23PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

GEA?

-A

Carbon_Rod

Fri Dec 29 2006, 05:25AM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

I must agree with Simon, many assertions fail due to compounding speculation.

However, one must keep in mind sub-molecular physics do not follow the same rules people often take for granted.

Simon

Sat Dec 30 2006, 06:17AM

Registered Member #32 Joined: Sat Feb 04 2006, 08:58AM
Location: Australia
Posts: 549

Conundrum wrote ...

GEA?

Gravitational Equivalent of an Atom. It was the idea that particles near a very small black hole would experience the same sort of forces as are in a regular atom, so the black hole system could work like an atom.

I felt that was the only idea in the article worth paying much attention to (who needs another ball lightning "explanation"?). Even that is unlikely to be solid but I can't really comment. Quantum isn't my stuff yet.

That article seems to be NS relaxing its standards over the Christmas break. Then again, the magazine seems to be doing that a lot recently (recall the relativistic drive...). NS is a great science magazine when taken with a pinch of salt.

Tesladownunder

Sat Dec 30 2006, 09:19AM

Registered Member #10 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 09:45AM
Location: Bunbury, Australia
Posts: 1424

I might just mention that Chris has previously indicated that he does not want ball lightning stuff on this forum which was why my thread on discharge induced vortices was locked.

Peter

Conundrum

Mon Jan 01 2007, 12:34AM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

I also recall that ball lightning discussions are not banned, we had this discussion on the chat room a while back and it was agreed in principle to allow them.

If this position has indeed changed please make it clear in the FAQ and in the rules.

In addition, banning a topic purely because it might be associated with pseudoscience without any evidence of this (many, many eyewitness reports including a number of prominent scientists) is very dangerous and resembles Inquisition thinking.

Just my $0.02 worth.

-A

Simon

Mon Jan 01 2007, 03:29AM

Registered Member #32 Joined: Sat Feb 04 2006, 08:58AM
Location: Australia
Posts: 549

To clarify the rules on ball lightning, I've started a thread on the admin board.

Bjørn

Mon Jan 01 2007, 05:36AM

Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058

Ball lightning is not banned in itself but all forms of pseudoscience is banned.

Tesle coils are clearly associated with pseudoscience and they are fine to discuss. That is because there are internally consistent theories that is proven to fit with reality to a high degree. They are also reproducible in a controlled environment.

Ball lightning has thousands if not millions of conflicting and confusing eyewitness reports and hundreds of photographs that mostly shows streetlights at long exposures. There is no theory that fits with reality since the nature of the phenomena is unknown. There is no theory that fits with the eyewitness reports either since they are in strong conflict.

So jumping straight to a discussion about ball lightning without defining exactly what is to be discussed and showing some evidence of the existence of the phenomena starts out with one leg planted clearly in pseudoscience and the other leg will follow within two posts.

Everyone is free to start a ball lightning thread but it would need to stay away from speculation.

Conundrum

Mon Jan 01 2007, 04:02PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

I would also like to point out that the Department of Defence actually has ball lightning as a listed explanation for unusual aerial phenomena.

I agree that jumping in with theories without knowing the exact nature of the phenomena may be seen as unscientific, however when hard evidence exists (which the pilots of Flybe aircraft over here will be happy to discuss with anyone who asks) denying its existence is equally unscientific.

Maybe defining ball lightning as three or more separate phenomena would help, as has been done in the TORRO archives, as well as UK WeatherWorld.

The phenomena that seems to have been documented here is the classic "Fireball" but in an energy range which is hard to explain with *current* scientific knowledge.

In addition, it may be possible that recent work at the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider has indeed discovered that miniature black holes can indeed be generated, although their lifetime seems to be very limited.

Given that other "super heavy" objects have been tenatively detected by seismic coincidence

it is probable that a slightly larger event might indeed generate the level of damage seen.

-A

A PENSIONER had the shock of his life when ball lightning shot through his front window.

Roy Falla, 80, was watching TV at his home in Lowlands Road, St Sampsonâ€™s, when the phenomenon struck, causing the set to fail.
Amateur meteorologist Paul Domaille has investigated more than 50 reports of ball lightning from Thursday last week â€“ seen at the same time as a Flybe aircraft was struck twice in mid-air.
So-called lightning balls penetrated at least four homes in the north of the island. It can enter and exit properties without leaving a mark. Mr Falla was about to go to bed when the loudest clap of thunder he had ever heard went off.
A split second later, a lightning ball entered his lounge through the window and closed curtains and the television broke.
â€˜I was absolutely petrified,â€™ he said.
â€˜It made a hissing noise and I would say it went dead centre into the back of the TV.â€™
Mr Falla examined that the set, which he expected to be warm, but could find nothing obviously wrong. As he opened the curtains to look outside, he heard an aircraft, which he believes was the Flybe Dash 8 that had been forced to abort its flight to Exeter.
â€˜I pulled the curtains back to see, but the glass was fine.
â€˜The thing that amazed was that the ball came through the window without causing any damage. The thing I donâ€™t know is where it really went.â€™
The ball was a yellow/white colour and about the size of a football.
Mr Falla said he went to bed â€˜shaking like a leafâ€™. He was so worried that he had imagined the whole thing that he did not tell his daughter of his experience for a week.
â€˜I thought that no one would believe me and I certainly hope I donâ€™t see another one. Just what can a thing like that do?â€™
Others also heard the clap of thunder.
â€˜My neighbour told me sheâ€™d been having a bath and sheâ€™d never got out so quick.â€™
Mr Domaille, 49, is a member of Torro â€“ the Tornado and Storm Research Organisation. Last Friday, he overheard a conversation in a shop suggesting that a person from St Martinâ€™s had seen ball lightning, which is unusual.
He asked the Guernsey Press to help him find that person. The following day after a story was published, he received more than 50 calls from people who had seen the phenomenon and was on the phone for about five hours.
One or possibly two balls were seen around Jerbourg Point and another above the Crown Pier. Mr Domaille posted his findings on the Torro forum and amateur meteorologists from as far afield as Russia and Australia have shown an interest.

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