Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 23
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
One birthday today, congrats!
Alexandre (32)


Next birthdays
05/07 a.gutzeit (63)
05/08 wpk5008 (34)
05/09 Alfons (36)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: Electromagnetic Projectile Accelerators
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

Maximum speed in multistage accelerator with identical windings

1 2 3 
Move Thread LAN_403
_Eugen_
Sun Dec 23 2018, 12:35PM Print
_Eugen_ Registered Member #57984 Joined: Thu Nov 19 2015, 09:44AM
Location:
Posts: 58
Limitations for velocity of projectile are investigated for a multistage reluctance accelerator having identical coils. Geometrical parameters of winding are used as basis, assuming an overdamped system fed from large common capacitance.
Back to top
_Eugen_
Sun Dec 23 2018, 12:41PM
_Eugen_ Registered Member #57984 Joined: Thu Nov 19 2015, 09:44AM
Location:
Posts: 58
Details of the calculation can be examined on this page.

Here are the results and discussion.

Modular With Osc Eng
Back to top
_Eugen_
Sun Dec 23 2018, 12:46PM
_Eugen_ Registered Member #57984 Joined: Thu Nov 19 2015, 09:44AM
Location:
Posts: 58
Below are maximum projectile velocities tabulated for various inside coil diamaters d, outer diameters D and length l.

Tab 1 Eng
d=0,3 cm

Tab 2 Eng
d=0,5 cm

Tab 3 Eng
d=0,8 cm

Tab 4 Eng
d=1,2 cm

Tab 5 Eng
d=2,0 cm
Back to top
_Eugen_
Sun Dec 23 2018, 12:52PM
_Eugen_ Registered Member #57984 Joined: Thu Nov 19 2015, 09:44AM
Location:
Posts: 58
Limitations layed by ohmic heat and weight of capacitor were taken into account. Red-colored cells of the tables correspond to the capacitor mass exceeding a resonable limit. Range of values for which no overheat occurs, is covered with green color.

Generally, we can see that both limits under concern work in one direction, constraining vmax for accelerators with thin long windings. "Heat" limit plays major role for the small calibers. At 8 mm bore the borders for the limits coincide, and for 12 and 20 mm bores "green zone" covers all the tables, and only "mass limit" manifests.

Other limiting factors like wight of the coils can also be taken into account by a similar way.
Back to top
_Eugen_
Sun Dec 23 2018, 12:56PM
_Eugen_ Registered Member #57984 Joined: Thu Nov 19 2015, 09:44AM
Location:
Posts: 58
Conclusions and discussion.

Following conclusions can be made.

1) On the assumption of the geometrical properties of multistage accelerators with identical coils, theoretical velocities of 100..130 m/s are achievable for the calibers of less than 8 mm. The highest-speed caliber is about 5 mm.

2) The obstacles on the way to higher speeds are overheat of the coils for small-bore coilguns, and huge mass of the power capacitor for large-bore ones. For 20 mm and larger calibers velocities of more than 70 m/s cannot be obtained exclusively because of geometry of the coils (even without the "weight" limitation).

3) vmax falls with coil's thickness growth and length decrease. The thickness is more critical - the velocity decreases by an order of magnitude when the outer diameter grows from 1,1·d to 2·d, and only triply when relative length increases from d to 4·d.



It is clear that small calibers are the most attractive for breakthrough to high velocities. They are even more tempting if we note that mass is not the only reason which limits us in a portable system - the length acts, too. 16 stages of 12 mm gaussgun with l/d = 4 ratio would make 80..90 cm in total (assuming some additional place for detectors and other elements of the construction) - this is a bit excessively. For 3 mm-bore coilgun total length would be 20..30 cm only.

The first table says that supersonic velocities can be obtained theoretically. Сooiling of windings with liquid nitrogen or Peltier modules can be used prior to shot to prevent overheat (such a method was proposed by many authors for induction launchers). In this case, the efficiency would increase not only because of active resistance reduction, but also because of the speed growth (see here).

As for large caliber coilguns (more 10 mm) with identical windings, the results above make us claim that velocities of projectile of more than 100 m/s cannot be obtained with state-of-art electronics (unless some tricky technologies are utilized like recuperation).
Back to top
Sulaiman
Sun Dec 23 2018, 02:20PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
As mentioned in the link provided,
the wire gauge, turns and coil dimensions would normally not be the same for each coil.

For a still fairly simple analysis why not maintain coil geometry
but use thinner wire at the start with the wire getting appropriately* thicker/more strands for successive stages.








* this is the hard part
Back to top
V2006
Mon Dec 24 2018, 08:44AM
V2006 Registered Member #61550 Joined: Thu Apr 06 2017, 03:23PM
Location:
Posts: 86
Re: "Limitations layed by ohmic heat and weight of capacitor were taken into account. Red-colored cells of the tables correspond to the capacitor mass exceeding a resonable limit."

- The size and weight of the capacitors have ceased to be a problem:

Link2

(12V , 100A using Super capacitors , Amazing idea)
Back to top
_Eugen_
Mon Dec 24 2018, 04:22PM
_Eugen_ Registered Member #57984 Joined: Thu Nov 19 2015, 09:44AM
Location:
Posts: 58
To Sulaiman:
For a still fairly simple analysis why not maintain coil geometry
but use thinner wire at the start with the wire getting appropriately* thicker/more strands for successive stages.

May be I'll try such an analysis later. The problem is that inductance varies vary fast with wire gauge d (in inverse proporion to (d in 4th power).
Anyway, the identity of the stages is lost here.

To V2006:

The size and weight of the capacitors have ceased to be a problem

No, the supercapacitors have too much serial resistance. The details can be found elsewhere. Besides, voltage is too low - LiPo batteries would be more optimal.
Back to top
V2006
Mon Dec 24 2018, 05:07PM
V2006 Registered Member #61550 Joined: Thu Apr 06 2017, 03:23PM
Location:
Posts: 86
To _Eugen_ :

When I bought a 450 Volt 8200 microfarad, I also read everything about them (for example, the limits on the discharge current.)

There is a video where 2.7 Volt 500 Farad is used for spot welding.
And there is a 24 volt assembly (total capacity 10 Farad). So you can make an assembly at 70 - 100 volts. This is already enough. Probably possible and 300 volts.
Back to top
hen918
Mon Dec 24 2018, 05:57PM
hen918 Registered Member #11591 Joined: Wed Mar 20 2013, 08:20PM
Location: UK
Posts: 556
V2006 wrote ...

To _Eugen_ :

When I bought a 450 Volt 8200 microfarad, I also read everything about them (for example, the limits on the discharge current.)

There is a video where 2.7 Volt 500 Farad is used for spot welding.
And there is a 24 volt assembly (total capacity 10 Farad). So you can make an assembly at 70 - 100 volts. This is already enough. Probably possible and 300 volts.

A low internal resistance 120 F supercapacitor has an ESR of 8 mR Link2 . To make 24 V ish, you would need 9 of them in series. -> 72 mR. For 100 V: 288 mR. This is several orders of magnitude larger than the resistance of the coil. A normal 100 V 0.1 F electrolytic has an internal resistance of 8 mR Link2 .
What advantage does the supercap have? I can't see one.
On a side note, even a 4500 F supercapacitor can't spot weld properly (I have tried). Again, this is due to the internal resistance; you need several hundred amps, and 2.7/(sum of resistances) cannot provide that, even using really chunky wire. It is probably possible to spot weld with a series/parallel combination of supercaps, but there isn't much point unless you happen to have a lot of them

Back to top
1 2 3 

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.