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To open source, or not?

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Storken

Sat Apr 11 2015, 03:02PM

Registered Member #1960 Joined: Thu Feb 05 2009, 11:57PM
Location:
Posts: 48

Hello 4HV,

"This board is for anything that doesn't fit the categories below, but still falls under the realm of science or electronics." - Category description. This post might be misplaced.

History mode on:
About three years ago, I recycled and built my first Li-ion battery. This was very powerful being able to discharge at 10C. The capacity was around 76V nominal and 11Ah. In other words, peaks around 7kW was possible - but only about 3kW was maximally used on a ebike. See here for a quick build log with some pictures.

2013, finished my B.sc in electronics. Started a master degree in electronics, wanted to start my own ebike-company.

2014, won an idea competition. Got funding. Used 6 months not deciding on trying to patent the idea or not. Kept the, relatively simple, idea secret. Built prototypes, built insanely powerful ebikes (~5-6000W).

2015. Got more funding, hired an full time 1 year employee. Decided not to patent. Financially responsible if I do not do what I'm supposed to. Master thesis soon done. Plan to sell better ebike-retrofit-kits to the general public with batteries that will last much longer than similar offerings.
History mode end

I/we have developed a small scale battery management system for use with battery packs between 12-48 V. With Bluetooth, we connect the battery to your phone.

As a user, you get a simple choice - do you want range - or life? If, for example, you charge a li-ion battery to 90% instead of 100%: you will typically double the life of the battery. With an app on your phone, you can see battery status, theft proof it and change the charge threshold.

We are running a kicstarter this may, but just in Norway. Our goal is to deliver ebike-retrofit-kits with our battery technology. Later, who knows? Possibly branded finished ebikes - or focusing on the small scale energy storage market.

We want our solution to be used globally, but what should and shouldn't we do? Should we open-source our hardware and software?

The pros (by open-sourcing):
+ We may enter the hackaday prize and get the word out globally.
+ We need not worry about copycats stealing our IP - it's open.
+ We might get help on both software and hardware.
+ Fame, if we fail - our venture's footprint will still be visible.
+ Might attract small players that can be vital to speading the use of our HW and SW.

The cons:
- Anyone can easily copy our design.
- We are most certainly infringing some patents, and open-sourcing will make it easier to detect.
- Might alienate future big partners.
- With a M.Sc behind me (soon), I do feel awkvard in the company of certain "makers".

It is hard to convey the position I'm in now. I feel like I've got everything to win, and everything to loose - like an intellectual superposition.

What would you do? What should I do?

Sincerely,

hen918

Sat Apr 11 2015, 05:12PM

Registered Member #11591 Joined: Wed Mar 20 2013, 08:20PM
Location: UK
Posts: 556

If you have the money to patent it and keep it protected, and the money to get the project going, I would say go for it. If, however, you feel that you might have a better chance using your money to push the project, using the open-source as a sales point, with one of those nice HTML 5 websites to sell your product, then go for that!

Carbon_Rod

Sat Apr 11 2015, 09:05PM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

Open-source does not mean free, but does introduce legal restrictions that variants on your work must be shared publicly with the people who shared with you.

If there is no IP protection, and your product proves unique (it isn't). Than your stuff will be cloned, or outright stolen through a first-to-register with no prior art situation. Business means working with engineers, lawyers, accountants, and a line of policy makers looking for money. It is not for people who are not interested in figuring out how to navigate the field of issues...

60% of â€œdevelopersâ€ these days do not have a formal education, and tend to focus on providing low cost services out of China/India. Most professional people left this game years ago... As one can't grow a business competing with â€œEngineersâ€ who charge $5/hr, and communists with 100% of labor costs subsidized by their government. Research people who import eBikes, as this saturated market developed very quickly in less than 5 years.

Note a community that shares is less hostile than one that outpaced your business whether you have IP protection or not.

My advice is to sell an open-source educational DIY kit to bypass the CE/RoHS/FCC certification and labor costs. Then add a licensing restriction that prohibits commercial resale of the design.

Cheers,
Rod

BigBad

Sat Apr 11 2015, 09:28PM

Registered Member #2529 Joined: Thu Dec 10 2009, 02:43AM
Location:
Posts: 600

If it's as simple as changing the charging threshold then:

a) you've just told us your patent; you can no longer patent it

b) the laptop I'm working on already has this feature, I can set it to 80% charge when running mostly on wall power

c) unless there's some further trick you haven't told us, this trick is already very well known; and so you will not be able to get a patent on it; and if by some chance you do, it will likely not stand up in court (see a-c)

Ash Small

Sat Apr 11 2015, 10:35PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

If you publish, no-one else can patent it, and from what people above have said, you can impose restrictions on others using your design for profit if you go 'open source'.

The Chinese will copy it anyway if there is money to be made.

Personally, I'd like you to publish because I'm interested in your design

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sun Apr 12 2015, 05:54AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

Even if you patent your system/design,

Do you have the money to chase after infringing parties?
Do you have the money to retain lawyers to fight on your behalf?

I'm all for copyright and patents, but without prosecutorial power, it's all just a waste of money.

Also if you publish your idea, it will just go straight to China and they will make the big bucks before you can stand to make a profit, thus putting you out of business before you can even start up your website.

If you're going to publish anything, at least make sure there is a microcontroller in-circuit that doesn't do a damned thing without the programming, which is kept proprietary and secret.

Just my $0.05 worth.

Storken

Wed Apr 15 2015, 06:10AM

Registered Member #1960 Joined: Thu Feb 05 2009, 11:57PM
Location:
Posts: 48

Carbon_Rod wrote ...

Open-source does not mean free, but does introduce legal restrictions that variants on your work must be shared publicly with the people who shared with you.

My advice is to sell an open-source educational DIY kit to bypass the CE/RoHS/FCC certification and labor costs. Then add a licensing restriction that prohibits commercial resale of the design.

Cheers,
Rod

Thanks to all that took the time to reply :)

As several has noted, our idea and product is not new and patentable. And yes, publicly disclosing it on a forum will void a future patent. I'm dense, but not that dense. Some parts of our product/idea (not disclosed here) may be patentable (third party evaluation).

As this is sub 60 V (Not Low Voltage Directive meat) and I do have EMC/CE training/school cources - I feel confident selling the product in Norway and Europe.

Yes, there is a microcontroller that "does not do a damned thing without the programming" and we do think our project will have value to others that are interested.

Looks like open source with a licence restricting commercial usage is what we will use.

"Research people who import eBikes, as this saturated market developed very quickly in less than 5 years." - This market is not yet developed here in Norway, it is booming right now - hence why we are focusing on this niche.

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