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LAN_403

Conundrum

Tue Sept 27 2011, 08:45AM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059

Hi all.

As you might have heard on the news, it seems that scientists at CERN have possibly discovered that neutrinos can travel
faster than the speed of light; the delay quoted is 60 nsec over the distance measured +/- 10 nsec.

If this result is proven elsewhere it could shake the very foundations of physics.

One fly in the ointment is that SN1987A's neutrinos were only delayed by an hour which does not tally with these new results.
The quoted explanation is that the neutrinos emitted in CERN's experiment are different to the ones from a supernova.
This makes little sense as supernovas are one of the most energetic events in the Universe.
SN1987A had around a 3 hour delay between the neutrino burst and the "first light" whereas nearly a five year delay would be expected if the neutrinos were travelling faster than light for all of that time.

I propose a different explanation.
The concept here is that the FTL neutrinos possess so much energy that they change type into a fourth neutrino type called the Omega, and then quantum mechanically tunnel into a higher dimension.
This allows them to traverse a substantial distance at essentially infinite velocity before changing type back into an electron, muon or tau neutrino, dropping back into normal spacetime and being observed.
While doing this the surrounding spacetime exerts a drag force on the neutrinos which means that each jump is shorter and shorter until they stay as conventional neutrinos.

Best analogy here is that they are skipping like stones across a pond; the water is acting like normal spacetime whereas the air is the higher dimension.

Confirmation or refutal of this theory would be by observing another nearby similar type supernova and measuring the neutrino delay.
If correct then the delay between neutrinos and photons/gamma rays should be the same at any distance.

Comments?

-A

testtest

Wed Sept 28 2011, 11:05PM

Registered Member #3271 Joined: Mon Oct 04 2010, 02:29AM
Location: Canada
Posts: 159

Or the issue, as someone pointed out at coffee this morning, is that we almost always measure the speed of "light" with light or photons (gamma or otherwise). Due to the index of refraction even one hydrogen atom per cubic meter in space does have a slowing effect on "c" with light (extended quantum wavefunction as found in the concept of entagledment) That would result in "c" being actually slightly larger than we always measured it with photons but neutrinos (or a combination of flavors) travels closer to the true "c"? Or if string theory is right neutrinos access more dimensions of space and thus travel a smaller distance than we measure.... both are equivalent. Paper from the group does look thourough at first read. Facinating!

jnbrex

Thu Sept 29 2011, 02:51AM

Registered Member #3950 Joined: Wed Jun 15 2011, 12:45AM
Location:
Posts: 51

Richnormand, I agree that hydrogen atoms could slow the light, but we have a very precise value for the speed of light in a vacuum. And I'm pretty sure one hydrogen atom per cubic meter would not even come CLOSE to slowing the speed of light nearly enough for the speed of the neutrinos to be moving at the "true" speed of light.
That said, I still believe that the CERN experiment is more likely a measurement error than a true violation of special relativity.

testtest

Thu Sept 29 2011, 11:47PM

Registered Member #3271 Joined: Mon Oct 04 2010, 02:29AM
Location: Canada
Posts: 159

you might be interested in this article and the discussion attached. Will be interesting to "see" where that goes....

Ash Small

Tue Oct 04 2011, 11:01AM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

It seems I'm unable to access that link for some reason, Rich.

However, my thoughts on this subject are along the following lines:

The velocity of photons changes depending on the medium (or their interaction with matter),

The 'mass' of neutrinos changes depending on the medium (or their interaction with matter)

This fundamental difference between photons and neutrinos 'may' explain the observed phenomena.

They are both 'massless' in a vacuum, and both have the same velocity in a vacuum, but the presence of matter will slow the photons, but not the neutrinos, and space isn't a 'true' vacuum, also, the mountains they passed through in the CERN experiment won't slow the neutrinos.)

(I still haven't ruled out 'experimental error', though)

testtest

Thu Oct 06 2011, 11:42PM

Registered Member #3271 Joined: Mon Oct 04 2010, 02:29AM
Location: Canada
Posts: 159

managed to use the link from three different computers at three different locations (different ISP and IP address) with no issues. Sorry you had a problem with the link. Sent you the link separately via the forum mail, that might work for you....

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