If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.
Special Thanks To:
Aaron Holmes
Aaron Wheeler
Adam Horden
Alan Scrimgeour
Andre
Andrew Haynes
Anonymous000
asabase
Austin Weil
barney
Barry
Bert Hickman
Bill Kukowski
Blitzorn
Brandon Paradelas
Bruce Bowling
BubeeMike
Byong Park
Cesiumsponge
Chris F.
Chris Hooper
Corey Worthington
Derek Woodroffe
Dalus
Dan Strother
Daniel Davis
Daniel Uhrenholt
datasheetarchive
Dave Billington
Dave Marshall
David F.
Dennis Rogers
drelectrix
Dr. John Gudenas
Dr. Spark
E.TexasTesla
eastvoltresearch
Eirik Taylor
Erik Dyakov
Erlend^SE
Finn Hammer
Firebug24k
GalliumMan
Gary Peterson
George Slade
GhostNull
Gordon Mcknight
Graham Armitage
Grant
GreySoul
Henry H
IamSmooth
In memory of Leo Powning
Jacob Cash
James Howells
James Pawson
Jeff Greenfield
Jeff Thomas
Jesse Frost
Jim Mitchell
jlr134
Joe Mastroianni
John Forcina
John Oberg
John Willcutt
Jon Newcomb
klugesmith
Leslie Wright
Lutz Hoffman
Mads Barnkob
Martin King
Mats Karlsson
Matt Gibson
Matthew Guidry
mbd
Michael D'Angelo
Mikkel
mileswaldron
mister_rf
Neil Foster
Nick de Smith
Nick Soroka
nicklenorp
Nik
Norman Stanley
Patrick Coleman
Paul Brodie
Paul Jordan
Paul Montgomery
Ped
Peter Krogen
Peter Terren
PhilGood
Richard Feldman
Robert Bush
Royce Bailey
Scott Fusare
Scott Newman
smiffy
Stella
Steven Busic
Steve Conner
Steve Jones
Steve Ward
Sulaiman
Thomas Coyle
Thomas A. Wallace
Thomas W
Timo
Torch
Ulf Jonsson
vasil
Vaxian
vladi mazzilli
wastehl
Weston
William Kim
William N.
William Stehl
Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
I was researching the corona motor. The motors are powered by very high voltages (over 10K). I noticed that some people were powering them by using "sky voltage". Here is a link to the concept.
I tried to do the same kind of thing. I I took a 3X3 inch piece of wire screening, put a smoke detector americium source on top of it. I then ran it up 10 feet off the ground on an insulated pole (fiberglass). I was able to get 280 volts at 3 nanoamps.
I realize that the voltage is very small 10 feet off the ground, but since it grows by about 100 volts per meter, it would be quite large and, I would think, commercially viable. I understand that lightning would be quite a problem, but it seems to me that very smart people could come up with a way to deal with that. The energy would be clean, free and available anywhere.
Since it is so easy to do, there must be a good reason why this has not been exploited on a commercial basis. I was hoping hat someone might be able to help me understand why this has not been made into a simple "clean" energy source.
Registered Member #30
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
I think it's probably because the amount of power generated is so small, it's not worth the bother.
Example: Let's say a 10 foot fiberglass pole costs $5, and a piece of wire screen and a radioactive source another $5. Total $10.
Now, it generates 840 nanowatts, let's say 1 microwatt to be kind. How long will the device take to pay for itself at an electricity price of 10 cents per kilowatt hour?
Answer: To pay for itself it must generate $10 worth of electricity, which is 100kWh, or 10^5 watt-hours. Since it generates 10^-6 watts this will take 10^11 hours, which is 11.4 million years.
Put another way: If the device lasts 100 years before falling apart, the cost of the energy from it is $11400 per kilowatt hour.
I imagine using a longer pole won't affect the above conclusions significantly.
Registered Member #96
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4061
Putting a small wind turbine on top of the pole or just a column of used case fans with the coils wired through Schottky rectifiers salvaged from PSUs might be more useful methinks.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Studying the atmospheric potential gradient using field mills throws light on our understanding of geomagnetic disturbances, Sudden Ionospheric Disturbances, terrestrial and space weather, and no doubt much else besides.
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Zamboni wrote ...
Since it is so easy to do, there must be a good reason why this has not been exploited on a commercial basis. I was hoping hat someone might be able to help me understand why this has not been made into a simple "clean" energy source.
Well in the link you cite :
Science and Invention, Vol. IX (106) #10 (February 1922) Power from the Air (I) by
Hugo Gernsback
During the war there was developed in Germany a new art --- or science --- that bids fair to revolutionize our present means of obtaining power.
This art, which is as new now as wireless was 25 years ago, will attain proportions during the next 25 years that may appear fantastic today. The inventor of the new science, an engineer of note, Herr Hermann Plauson, has devoted years of labor to his researches and he has now actually in use small power plants, that generate electricity direct from the air, day and night, without interruption at practically no cost, once the plant is constructed. We had occasion, in one of our former issues, to describe the system, roughly, from cabled dispatches, but complete information is available now. The amount of electrical power that resides in our atmosphere is astounding.Herr Plauson found in his experiments that a single balloon sent aloft to a height of 300 yards gave a constant current at 400 volts of 1.8 amperes, or in 24 hours over 17-1/4 kilowatts! By using two balloons in connection with a special condenser battery, the power obtained was 81-1/2 kilowatts in 24 hours. The actual current delivered was 6.8 amperes at 500 volts.
The best balloons used by the inventor are made of thin aluminum leaf. No fabric was used. A simple internal system of ribs, stays and wires, gives the balloon rigidity as well as a certain amount of elasticity. The balloon, when made airtight, is filled with hydrogen or better, with helium. It will then stay aloft for weeks at a time. The outer surface is dotted with extremely sharp pins, made sharp electrolytically. Ordinary pins did not prove good current collectors, as they lacked extreme sharpness. The pins themselves were made from amalgamated zinc, containing a radium preparation, in order to ionize the air. It was also found that by dotting the outer surface of the balloon with zinc-amalgam more current could be collected. Even better results were obtained with polonium amalgam. Plauson states that the function of these amalgams is purely photoelectric.
One hundred of such captive balloons, separated one hundred yards from each other, will give a steady yield of 200 horsepower. This is the minimum, because in the winter this figure increases up to 400 horsepower, due to the higher electrification of the atmosphere.
We need not go into the technic of how the current is finally made useable for industrial purposes, suffice it to say that the problem has been entirely solved by Herr Plauson. By using batteries of condensers, high tension transformers, etc., the current can be transformed to any form desires. Such as for lighting lamps, running motors, charging storage batteries, etc.
Plauson also invented a sort of electrostatic rotary transformer which gives alternating current without the use of condensers and transformers. Indeed, its output is very great, as it actually ‘sucks’ the current down rapidly from the collector balloons. There is no doubt that this invention will soon come into universal use all over the world. We will see the land dotted with captive balloons, particularly in the country and wherever water power does not abound. Indeed, the time is not distant when nearly all of our power will be derived from the atmosphere. So far it seems to be the cheapest form of power known, it being much cheaper even than water power --- the cheapest form of power known today. Not only that, but as the inventor points out, no devastating thunder storms occur near such aerial power plants, because the balloons act not only as lightning arresters, but they quickly discharge the biggest thunder cloud, safely and noiselessly through their grounded spark gaps.
I would have to say I think these claims were totally bogus. I have done some similar work (long kite string antennas with diodes), but no where near 400 Hp, only MicroWatts and NanoWatts. Mostly from radio waves and from radio stations. Any Geo-electric fields I may have encountered would be very weak, just insignificant really.
Registered Member #2463
Joined: Wed Nov 11 2009, 03:49AM
Location:
Posts: 1546
If you turn the problem inside out and consider empty space incapable of having any electric field whatsoever, then the earths electric field is just a way of filling all space with just enough crap to yield a time-averaged energy product because of free floating ions.
And of course, just looking at the electric field is perhaps short sighted. Do pions make any noise?
Would a braodband noise detector would produce more power than a nanoamp capacitor plate collector.
Hugo Gernsback was a futurist who published a little booklet called The Forecast.
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
radiotech wrote ...
If you turn the problem inside out and consider empty space incapable of having any electric field whatsoever, then the earths electric field is just a way of filling all space with just enough crap to yield a time-averaged energy product because of free floating ions.
And of course, just looking at the electric field is perhaps short sighted. Do pions make any noise?
Would a braodband noise detector would produce more power than a nanoamp capacitor plate collector.
Hugo Gernsback was a futurist who published a little booklet called The Forecast.
I cant tell, are you agreeing with me Radiotech?
I dont know if Hugo bothered to verify these claims by others or simply published these fantastical numbers.
I do agree that there is the ability to gain some ultra low power from all kinds of special contraptions, but its all very small. Then scam artists hype it up, promise mega power. I think this is the best explanation I can give Zamboni. I would also support Steve McConnor's approximations and conclusions.
Registered Member #2463
Joined: Wed Nov 11 2009, 03:49AM
Location:
Posts: 1546
I dont know if Hugo bothered to verify these claims by others or simply published these fantastical numbers.
Gernsback had knowledge about the practical issues of electricity: the family had been manufacturing and marketing radio and science materials for years. He did hold patents in the field.
The number under question is the 6.8 Amps at 400 volts. What is not known is the size of the balloon. Was it the size of a blimp? The 400 volt number would represent 59 ohms as load resistance for maximum transfer.
What would be the metalic skin area of the Hindenberg, which had a net lift of about 125 tonnes.?
Perhaps a good exercise would to take the expected "brush discharge" "St Elmos Fire" or what ever , current over a metal skin covering 7 million cubic feet in the shape ratio of 6:1 augmented by millions of tiny points and add in the ion loss of the radium mix in the coating, and see what pops out. Shoiuld be a cinch for a computer to model.
The circuit formed by the teathered test craft (failed) mission NASA tried was fed by a little ion generator on the outside of the shuttle. What was the current in the teather when it parted ? I think the disturbance toasted a slew of instrumentation when that happened. Although the energy there was more the teather conductor passing through a magnetic field, it was still an 'rarefied' air terminal.
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.
Sky voltage
