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4hv.org :: Forums :: High Voltage
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The best/easiest oscillator...

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Inducktion
Wed Mar 09 2011, 11:26PM Print
Inducktion Registered Member #3637 Joined: Fri Jan 21 2011, 11:07PM
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1068
What is the best/easiest oscillator circuit in your opinion? It can be anything... 555's.... ZVS driver...anything..

I'm trying to figure out what to use for a self excited and self tuning induction heater. A ZVS driver would work normally but I don't have the isolation transformer needed to run it at the frequencies required....Unless, of course, the ZVS driver, could be ran at rectified mains, with just a center tapped coil. I've tried looking around at various induction heater circuits...most involve using some PWM and mosfets, but it's all manual tune, or using a PLL chip. Some of the other ones, like the colpitts oscillators or hartley ones, all don't give me values of what to use, so I'm left scratching my head at what to do.

Is there a good, reliable circuit, that can be ran on 170 v DC, self excited, and can be ran at around 250 -300 khz?

I really appreciate it.



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Ash Small
Wed Mar 09 2011, 11:36PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
I've been puzzling over this too.

It seems to me that it might be possible to use a coil (work coil) and two variable capacitors, one series, one parallel, and then just use a bank of parallel mosfets to 'top up the tank circuit'.

It may require a few more components, eg a series inductor (not sure), and it would require some kind of feedback to automatically adjust the variable caps to keep the tank in tune, but this seems like the simplest solution to me.

This is all 'armchair theory' though. I've not got around to trying it yet.

EDIT: I'm not even sure that the series cap is necessary.
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James
Thu Mar 10 2011, 12:29AM
James Registered Member #3610 Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506
The ZVS driver is by far the simplest, you really need a lot of power to do induction heating.

John DeArmond's "Roy" induction heater that I posted the other day is the simplest cheapest design I've found. It's essentially a Mazzilli driver with some modifications to make it more robust. His older revisions are even simpler and will work at lower power. You will need some burly 1200V IGBTs or mosfets to run straight from mains but those are getting cheap. I got 10 of the ones he used for 20 bucks on ebay.

Hop on craigslist or freecycle and find an old UPS or car battery charger if you want a big transformer to run it. You'll need that for anything that isn't straight mains powered. The ferrite core for the matching transformer can be salvaged from a flyback.
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Inducktion
Thu Mar 10 2011, 01:51AM
Inducktion Registered Member #3637 Joined: Fri Jan 21 2011, 11:07PM
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1068
James wrote ...

The ZVS driver is by far the simplest, you really need a lot of power to do induction heating.

John DeArmond's "Roy" induction heater that I posted the other day is the simplest cheapest design I've found. It's essentially a Mazzilli driver with some modifications to make it more robust. His older revisions are even simpler and will work at lower power. You will need some burly 1200V IGBTs or mosfets to run straight from mains but those are getting cheap. I got 10 of the ones he used for 20 bucks on ebay.

Hop on craigslist or freecycle and find an old UPS or car battery charger if you want a big transformer to run it. You'll need that for anything that isn't straight mains powered. The ferrite core for the matching transformer can be salvaged from a flyback.

The thing I was wondering though, is why does it need the matching transformer? What is its purpose other than isolation? Because without it, it is truely resonant, which is what I want, and can be high frequency.

And can I substitute some parts, I.E. instead of the RPG diodes, use UF4007's? For the older one that is, I don't have the parts needed to build the newer one.

If I do end up having to use the matching transformer, I thought flyback cores were bad at such frequencies, I.E. saturation.
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James
Thu Mar 10 2011, 02:05AM
James Registered Member #3610 Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506
The matching transformer allows you to convert some voltage to current, so that the transistors don't have to carry the full current passing through the work coil. In effect it's like a gearbox allowing a motor to produce enormous torque by reducing the speed. The current in the work coil can be tens to hundreds of Amps without needing exotic mosfets. It also dramatically reduces the effect placing different objects within the work coil has on the operating frequency and lets you use a work coil without a center tap. Almost any large ferrite will work to some extent, like I said, you can take one from a dead flyback or take apart the transformer from an ATX power supply.

Start out with the Mazzilli circuit. It works, I've tried it, you can heat small objects red hot using the 12V output from a PC power supply or car battery. Mains powered will be a bit more picky but look up datasheets and compare. Talk to Vishay about the diodes, I bet they'll send you some free samples if you say you're a student working on a project. There's a good chance they'll send you some samples of mosfets too. Research and ask for the parts you need and don't abuse the service by requesting loads of stuff or reselling it.
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Adam Munich
Thu Mar 10 2011, 02:13AM
Adam Munich Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
You forgot to mention that the transformer also prevent the work coil from being at mains voltage, and seeing as it's easy to short out a bare copper coil that's a pretty important feature.
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Marko
Thu Mar 10 2011, 02:28AM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
The matching transformer allows you to convert some voltage to current, so that the transistors don't have to carry the full current passing through the work coil. In effect it's like a gearbox allowing a motor to produce enormous torque by reducing the speed. The current in the work coil can be tens to hundreds of Amps without needing exotic mosfets. It also dramatically reduces the effect placing different objects within the work coil has on the operating frequency and lets you use a work coil without a center tap. Almost any large ferrite will work to some extent, like I said, you can take one from a dead flyback or take apart the transformer from an ATX power supply.

This is one of reasons why a matching transformer is used with series induction heaters, but not very true for ones with parallel circuits. In these the transformer is either 1:1 or a small stepdown (2:1 or so) and it's primary purpose is isolation.

Theorethically you could run a ZVS driver from mains at 1200V staight into work coil, but I'd definitely use a tansformer simply for isolation reasons.

In any case if you want to get into serious induction heating, apart form the big ferrite cores (look at my soviet ferrite thread and search the store for gigantic soviet toroids), you'll also need to spend several hundred bucks on a proper conduction cooled capacitor as well.

The other problem with ZVS is, that when ran from high voltages, it frequently tends to blow up. That's the main reason you don't see anybody using it.
You might have fun heating some bolts red hot with it powered from a rewound mot or so.

Marko
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Adam Munich
Thu Mar 10 2011, 02:32AM
Adam Munich Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
Marko wrote ...
you'll also need to spend several hundred bucks on a proper conduction cooled capacitor as well.

Would a paper mica cap and a PC water cooling block not work?
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James
Thu Mar 10 2011, 02:54AM
James Registered Member #3610 Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506
Marko wrote ...

The matching transformer allows you to convert some voltage to current, so that the transistors don't have to carry the full current passing through the work coil. In effect it's like a gearbox allowing a motor to produce enormous torque by reducing the speed. The current in the work coil can be tens to hundreds of Amps without needing exotic mosfets. It also dramatically reduces the effect placing different objects within the work coil has on the operating frequency and lets you use a work coil without a center tap. Almost any large ferrite will work to some extent, like I said, you can take one from a dead flyback or take apart the transformer from an ATX power supply.

This is one of reasons why a matching transformer is used with series induction heaters, but not very true for ones with parallel circuits. In these the transformer is either 1:1 or a small stepdown (2:1 or so) and it's primary purpose is isolation.

Theorethically you could run a ZVS driver from mains at 1200V staight into work coil, but I'd definitely use a tansformer simply for isolation reasons.

In any case if you want to get into serious induction heating, apart form the big ferrite cores (look at my soviet ferrite thread and search the store for gigantic soviet toroids), you'll also need to spend several hundred bucks on a proper conduction cooled capacitor as well.

The other problem with ZVS is, that when ran from high voltages, it frequently tends to blow up. That's the main reason you don't see anybody using it.
You might have fun heating some bolts red hot with it powered from a rewound mot or so.

Marko



I'll post this in this thread Link2

He determined why the ZVS driver had a tendency to explode and came up with a refined design that solves this. The resonant capacitor he uses is 3-4 bucks in small quantities and the circuit is capable of running continuously at ~1kW and pushing up on 2kW for short periods. He's currently developing a much larger heater that can do >8kW but for most people the basic design is likely more than enough.

His design can be built for under $100 if you buy everything retail, and much much cheaper if you do some scrounging and can get by with somewhat lower power. Take the basic ZVS circuit, add some real mosfet gate driver ICs and a schmitt trigger flip-flop and the reliability is greatly improved at higher powers. The stock "Mazzilli" circuit is good for ~60V input though if you use 3W resistors. I found I can easily heat screws and nails and such red hot in a few seconds using parts salvaged from old CRT monitors. As I said already, I *strongly* recommend starting with the proven "Mazzilli" circuit since it's dirt cheap, ridiculously simple, and proven to work. When you reach the limits and want more, tweak it and experiment, or build John's design as it's proven robust and also quite simple.

Most importantly, have fun and don't burn yourself.
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Inducktion
Thu Mar 10 2011, 03:36AM
Inducktion Registered Member #3637 Joined: Fri Jan 21 2011, 11:07PM
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1068
James wrote ...

Marko wrote ...

The matching transformer allows you to convert some voltage to current, so that the transistors don't have to carry the full current passing through the work coil. In effect it's like a gearbox allowing a motor to produce enormous torque by reducing the speed. The current in the work coil can be tens to hundreds of Amps without needing exotic mosfets. It also dramatically reduces the effect placing different objects within the work coil has on the operating frequency and lets you use a work coil without a center tap. Almost any large ferrite will work to some extent, like I said, you can take one from a dead flyback or take apart the transformer from an ATX power supply.

This is one of reasons why a matching transformer is used with series induction heaters, but not very true for ones with parallel circuits. In these the transformer is either 1:1 or a small stepdown (2:1 or so) and it's primary purpose is isolation.

Theorethically you could run a ZVS driver from mains at 1200V staight into work coil, but I'd definitely use a tansformer simply for isolation reasons.

In any case if you want to get into serious induction heating, apart form the big ferrite cores (look at my soviet ferrite thread and search the store for gigantic soviet toroids), you'll also need to spend several hundred bucks on a proper conduction cooled capacitor as well.

The other problem with ZVS is, that when ran from high voltages, it frequently tends to blow up. That's the main reason you don't see anybody using it.
You might have fun heating some bolts red hot with it powered from a rewound mot or so.

Marko



I'll post this in this thread Link2

He determined why the ZVS driver had a tendency to explode and came up with a refined design that solves this. The resonant capacitor he uses is 3-4 bucks in small quantities and the circuit is capable of running continuously at ~1kW and pushing up on 2kW for short periods. He's currently developing a much larger heater that can do >8kW but for most people the basic design is likely more than enough.

His design can be built for under $100 if you buy everything retail, and much much cheaper if you do some scrounging and can get by with somewhat lower power. Take the basic ZVS circuit, add some real mosfet gate driver ICs and a schmitt trigger flip-flop and the reliability is greatly improved at higher powers. The stock "Mazzilli" circuit is good for ~60V input though if you use 3W resistors. I found I can easily heat screws and nails and such red hot in a few seconds using parts salvaged from old CRT monitors. As I said already, I *strongly* recommend starting with the proven "Mazzilli" circuit since it's dirt cheap, ridiculously simple, and proven to work. When you reach the limits and want more, tweak it and experiment, or build John's design as it's proven robust and also quite simple.

Most importantly, have fun and don't burn yourself.

I already have the IGBT's, the capacitors, and the diodes needed. The only issue with that circuit, are the IC's... I don't have money to buy them, unfortunately. Being 17 without a job and a love for electronics really sucks. :/
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