Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 96
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
All today's birthdays', congrats!
Download (31)
ScottH (37)


Next birthdays
11/03 Electroguy (94)
11/04 nitromarsjipan (2024)
11/04 mb (31)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: General Science and Electronics
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

Hybrid batteries tease big energy capacity while charging in seconds

1 2 3 
Move Thread LAN_403
Adam Munich
Wed Nov 17 2010, 12:19AM Print
Adam Munich Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
Ioxus Inc. is an up and comer in the energy storage industry that has plans this Monday to announce a new hybrid storage device that it hopes will radically alter batteries used in the auto, medical, and consumer electronics industries. The teased product is said to be roughly the size of a typical C-cell battery and combines the fast charge / discharge benefits of ultracapacitors with the impressive energy-to-weight ratio of a lithium-ion electrode. As a result, Ioxus says the hybrid devices can store more than double the energy of traditional ultracapacitors and charge in a matter of seconds. The catch is that the hybrids have shorter life spans of 20,000 cycles compared to millions of cycles for typical ultracapacitors. We're also taking this with a grain of skepticism until these claims are proven in the field. Some brief digging though did unearth an article written by MIT researchers and published in Scientific American last year that discusses the possible benefits of supercharging lithium-ion cells -- which is encouraging.

The first iteration could be used to power a host of devices like off-the-grid lighting or power tools. Use in larger systems like the regenerative breaks of electric cars however won't be possible until the second generation arrives -- which the CEO pegged as sometime in the first quarter of next year.

1289604328

Source

Sweet. Sounds like this technology will have a massive impact on the electric car industry one day, and the portable electronics industry. If they have such a low resistance that they can charge in seconds, that means they could discharge quickly too. For those who like cap banks, 200*2.3V 800F caps in series = 26.45 kilojoules if my math is correct.
Back to top
klugesmith
Wed Nov 17 2010, 12:53AM
klugesmith Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716
Sweet. Sounds like this will have a MASSIVE impact on the electric car industry, and the portable electronics industry. If they have such a low resistance that they can charge in seconds, that means they could discharge quickly too. For those who like cap banks, 200*2.3V 800F caps in series = 26.45 kilojoules if my math is correct.
I figured a value 16.0 times greater: 423 kJ (2116 J per capacitor) . anybody else want to vote?
If I'm right, then the bank of 200 could ideally accelerate 1 metric ton to 29 m/s = 105 kph = 65 mph.
The same total energy could be had from a dozen C-size alkaline batteries, if you were willing to draw it over a period of hours.

Ultracapacitor banks are already in service in hybrid city buses, with one charge/discharge cycle at every bus stop. They fill a niche between rechargeable batteries (much higher energy density) and conventional capacitors (much higher power density).
Back to top
Adam Munich
Wed Nov 17 2010, 12:59AM
Adam Munich Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
Oh well I did ((1/800) * 200) *.5 * (200*2.3)^2. It doesn't matter right now though.

I know it's not a lot of total energy, but this is only the first generation of these things. If they are as good as they say and don't be a dick with the patents like mazda did with the wankel, hardcore research could be put into the chemistry and in a decade they could possibly start replacing li-ions.
Back to top
klugesmith
Wed Nov 17 2010, 01:03AM
klugesmith Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716
I see the math problem.
You figured 1/4 farad at 460 volts; s/b 4 farads. The 800 belongs on top and 200 on the bottom.


We agree that the technology could be good for lots of practical things,
other than just getting money from investors.
Back to top
Adam Munich
Wed Nov 17 2010, 01:08AM
Adam Munich Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
Oops, lol I assumed they were 1 volt each.

In // 200 caps would supply 627kJ, or 1.07 cans of coke. We really need to find a way to convert sugar to electricity.
Back to top
Bjørn
Wed Nov 17 2010, 01:52AM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
The datasheet says that they have less power density then the cheap lithium battery I have on my desk. So they seem even less useful than normal ultra capacitors.
Back to top
Pinky's Brain
Wed Nov 17 2010, 02:09AM
Pinky's Brain Registered Member #2901 Joined: Thu Jun 03 2010, 01:25PM
Location:
Posts: 837
We have a really good way to turn sugar into electricity, turn it into ethanol and pour it into a combustion engine with a generator attached ... the problem is the pollution.

Lets hope DEFCs are perfected in the near future.
Back to top
Adam Munich
Wed Nov 17 2010, 02:20AM
Adam Munich Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
I was thinking of a more direct means, something directly chemical instead of mechanical. There's a problem with your plan and it's the internal combustion engine. It's a wasteful flawed design that wastes a lot of energy as heat light and sound. Not only that, but fermentation takes a lot of time and money, especially on the huge industrial scale that bio fuel would need.
Back to top
Chris Russell
Wed Nov 17 2010, 06:36AM
Chris Russell ... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Fermentation takes time and money, and distillation takes even more time and money. I'm not sure if this is still the case as I haven't researched the matter lately, but not too long ago it took more energy (not counting sunlight) to grow, harvest, mash, ferment, and distill than one can get out of the ethanol in the end.

That said, we humans are pretty good about getting energy out of sugar, since we can skip everything after grow and harvest. I've seen some interesting preliminary research into powering devices like laptops, cell phones, etc simply using our own blood sugar. Presumably at some point in the distant future, we will be able to have a personal power port installed. Then we really can convert that can of coke directly into electricity.

At any rate, these hybrid capacitors seem like an interesting step in a different direction. Only time will tell if that direction turns out to be useful. As Bjorn rightly pointed out, these aren't terribly useful just yet.
Back to top
Steve Conner
Wed Nov 17 2010, 11:48AM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
Chris Russell wrote ...

Presumably at some point in the distant future, we will be able to have a personal power port installed. Then we really can convert that can of coke directly into electricity.

The problem is just that we use far more energy than what we eat. 1kW per person is considered some sort of reasonable target for world power consumption. I exceed it a little myself, Americans exceed it by about a factor of 4. But the consumption of food energy is only a couple of hundred watts per person.

Effectively we each have an army of about 10 slaves, and they all have to be fed. Currently they eat oil, but once the oil runs out, they will have to be fed some other way, or scrapped. The world production of all the kinds of bio-stuff combined is not enough.

I ride a bike to work, so my transport is already powered by sugar, cakes, pasta, bread, pizza and so on. smile
Back to top
1 2 3 

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.