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Conundrum

Thu Apr 08 2010, 05:52PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4061

Nasty. Not heard of this happening in cars before but worth checking if you feel strange when driving.

As it happens some old cars can develop exhaust leaks into the cabin over time, unless you used a CO detector you would never know anything was wrong.

-A

klugesmith

Thu Apr 08 2010, 06:10PM

Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716

Has anyone yet heard of an attempt at suicide by car exhaust,
that failed because it used a modern clean-air engine?

The news article pushed a hot button for me when it explicitly blamed the close call,
not on a faulty boiler, but on the governor's veto of a law to mandate CO detectors
in all rental housing units.
Reminded me of an article (somewhere, sometime) about deaths from smoldering fires at home.
Blame was assigned to codes permitting cheap ionization-chamber smoke detectors
instead of mandating photoelectric or dual-mode smoke detectors.

Here is the headline of a "related article" from the same periodical.
"Governor's Plan to Save Money By Killing Puppies and Kitties Shouldn't Lead to Spike In Euthanizations Here (For Now)"

Will

Fri Apr 09 2010, 04:58AM

Registered Member #57 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:28AM
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 27

[No addition to topic. Couldn't help but think of this with Klugesmith's post.]

Steve Conner

Fri Apr 09 2010, 09:51AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

The VW beetle and bus had a bad reputation for this, because the cabin heater consisted of a heat exchanger with the exhaust running through it. If that sprang a leak...

MinorityCarrier

Fri Apr 09 2010, 11:01PM

Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312

An Engineer I worked with at Zilog had his whole family poisoned with CO (all recovered) when his gas-fired central heater heat exchanger cracked and injected CO into the recirculating air.

They all developed splitting headaches at the same time which is what tipped him off to the possibility of CO poisoning. He got a CO monitor for the house and confirmed it.

One of the drawbacks of the plug-in house CO monitors is that most house AC outlets are near the floor but CO is lighter than air and floats up. I keep a CO monitor in the bathroom in an outlet above the sink countertop for that reason.

I drove VW beetles and Baja Bugs for years. There were so many air leaks in my three different bugs that CO poisoning wasn't as big a concern as was the car bursting into flames should the fuel line pop off the carbuerator.

the_anomaly

Sat Apr 10 2010, 12:33AM

Registered Member #19 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 03:19PM
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 168

I miss-aligned a mid pipe on a mustang I used to have and on the way home I rode nearly an hour on the highway with my head out the window.. Not pleasant and I did not have a chance to fix it until I got home.

Bored Chemist

Sat Apr 10 2010, 01:23PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

The molar mass of CO is 28, the mean molar mass of dry air is about 29 and for wet air it's slightly lower.
Since the densities are proportional to the molar masses the density of CO is at least 97% that of air.

Fitting a CO monitor anywhere (other than in a cupboard) is a good idea. The fact that the sockets tend to be at skirting board level doesn't make much difference.

Hon1nbo

Sat Apr 10 2010, 09:17PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: North Texas
Posts: 1040

Bored Chemist wrote ...

The molar mass of CO is 28, the mean molar mass of dry air is about 29 and for wet air it's slightly lower.
Since the densities are proportional to the molar masses the density of CO is at least 97% that of air.

Fitting a CO monitor anywhere (other than in a cupboard) is a good idea. The fact that the sockets tend to be at skirting board level doesn't make much difference.

yes, but also factor in air circulation - a lot of air comes in up in upper vents, and with such similar densities it has no reason to easily reach the lower levels associated with outlets unless the force of air turbulence causes it to, but from a technical standpoint that applies in a lot of cases you are right, but it could happen that (for example, the air fans are on a low output or everyone is sleeping so no air is disturbed) that is does not mix in all levels of height due to the reason I described

it's like neutral buoyancy for scuba divers, when you have it nothing except an external force will make you sink, and with a slightly positive substance it takes more effort to do it

-Jimmy

p.s: I have heard of that person who used a clean air car, his name is Eric Cartman and he tried to use a hybrid.

Conundrum

Sat Apr 10 2010, 10:06PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4061

hm.m, interesting.

One thing I did recall reading on the 4HV chat is that CO detectors degrade with excessive exposure to the point that the sensor can "appear" fine but not alarm when it should.

it may be better to get sensors with dual chambers and/or failsafes, the more expensive ones have them.

also, detecting CO poisoning is complicated by a typical SpO2 meter showing 100% O2sat even when it is actually more like 97%.

interestingly, this may allow a wristwatch-like device to be used in order to detect CO poisoning before symptoms occur, by measuring SpO2 and alarming if a significant upward trend is noted..

-A

MinorityCarrier

Sat Apr 10 2010, 11:47PM

Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312

Idatech makes methyl alcohol/water steam-reformation hydrogen generators for supplying fuel cells. I worked there briefly. The CO monitors in these units had to be located in the upper part of the units to detect any CO leaks in the plumbing. Down low they would often miss CO leaks. Practical experience Bored Chemist.

In practice CO monitors are better in an elevated location.

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