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4hv.org :: Forums :: Electromagnetic Radiation
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X-ray Film Processing ISO400

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Proud Mary
Fri Nov 20 2009, 08:47PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Thank you Fabio, for your kinds words of encouragement!

Other replies, well-intentioned though they certainly seemed to be, have confused questions of shielding, safety and dosimetry (which I didn't ask) with my question about film speed in direct exposure.

For the record, all of my experiments are conducted with 360 deg lead shielding, with leakage monitored by twin Ne/Kr prop tubes (good down to 6keV,) supported by a Precitron Janus Dual Channel electrometer and a BGO/PMT detector for back up. Leakage is not detectable above background at any point. Additionally, I have an air ion counter, to alert me to otherwise undetected leakage, or failing insulation. Finally, I have a timer, so need not be around while the exposure is in progress.

What's more, I don't encourage others to do as I have done, or go in for practical discussions with people who want to buy the tube before they buy the lead and the dosimeters! Civic responsibility.

Back to my actual question, I do not want to use an intensifying screen, because it will lower the resolution of my crystallographic images, where exposures of several days are a commonplace, - in fact a screen would make of the experiment a useless, costly, blurred disc.

At the moment, I am using micro-focus end-window earthed-anode XRD tubes with a variety of anodes - Ag, Ge, Cu, Fe, W, Ni - and so on, to match my mood, usually operated below 30kVp, according to need and type. My favourite at the moment is an Ag anode end-window micro-focus type, which I run at 24kVp/30uA so as to enjoy the benefits of the startling silver peaks around 22keV - perfect for exciting silver halide film emulsion.

And I have the cutest little W-anode Be end-window tube that motors along happily at as little as 5kVp/10uA, and is a surprisingly bright source, so size isn't everything. smile
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Fabio
Fri Nov 20 2009, 09:59PM
Fabio Registered Member #122 Joined: Fri Feb 10 2006, 12:55PM
Location: Milano Italy
Posts: 148
Hi stella!

This is the development table i used for TMAX400 with D76 developer (i'm not sure about HP5, but should be close)
Th

according to this table, for example, if you would develop the film at his standard sensitivity (400 ISO) and the temperature of the developer liquid is 22 degrees celsius, you must leave the film inside the baths for 8minutes and 30seconds and if you need an extreme overdeveloping at 3200 ISO the temperature of the bath must be lowered to 20C° and the developing time must be increased to 15 minutes.
please note that the time difference between 400 and 800 ISO is negligible so the table show exactly the same development times for both!!!

For a better repetability, the film must be removed from the development bath and placed in the stopper bath as quickly as possible, there is no maximum time or temperature constraints neither for the stopper nor for the fixer baths so you could almost forget the film inside.

to select the right exposure time for first times you can mask the film with a lead sheet and gradually remove it during exposure (of course, the machine should be turned off before you enter in the room and both the subject, the film and the tube must remain still because multiple exposures are needed!!!), note that to match the sensitivity chart of the film, the exposure time between each test should be doubled.

I think that almost all of the informations are given, now we just wait for your first results!


Ciao!
Fabio.
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Proud Mary
Fri Nov 20 2009, 10:18PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Fabio wrote ...

Hi stella!

This is the development table i used for TMAX400 with D76 developer (i'm not sure about HP5, but should be close)
Th

according to this table, for example, if you would develop the film at his standard sensitivity (400 ISO) and the temperature of the developer liquid is 22 degrees celsius, you must leave the film inside the baths for 8minutes and 30seconds and if you need an extreme overdeveloping at 3200 ISO the temperature of the bath must be lowered to 20C° and the developing time must be increased to 15 minutes.
please note that the time difference between 400 and 800 ISO is negligible so the table show exactly the same development times for both!!!

For a better repetability, the film must be removed from the development bath and placed in the stopper bath as quickly as possible, there is no maximum time or temperature constraints neither for the stopper nor for the fixer baths so you could almost forget the film inside.

to select the right exposure time for first times you can mask the film with a lead sheet and gradually remove it during exposure (of course, the machine should be turned off before you enter in the room and both the subject, the film and the tube must remain still because multiple exposures are needed!!!), note that to match the sensitivity chart of the film, the exposure time between each test should be doubled.

I think that almost all of the informations are given, now we just wait for your first results!


Ciao!
Fabio.


Thanks Fabio!

I will cut up my first exposure into four, and push process the strips at 400,800,1600, and 3200, according to the table. It may be that I shall run into some problems with reciprocity law failure, given that we are talking about exposures of 48 - 72 hours, but there's only one way to find out - otherwise it wouldn't be an 'experiment' would it? smile

I have a line of beakers of saturated CuSO4 solution in my box room, where it is cool and dark, to try and grow as nearly a perfect crystal on a quartz fibre as I can for my first experiment. I have to stop myself from looking at them!

It always gives me great pleasure to hear of your own experiments, Fabio, and often wish that I had your practical talents!

love,

Stella X
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Fabio
Fri Nov 20 2009, 10:54PM
Fabio Registered Member #122 Joined: Fri Feb 10 2006, 12:55PM
Location: Milano Italy
Posts: 148
I also suggest you to buy or make a calibrated absorber, the most common absorber are made with stainless and/or alluminium, for hard rays lead is preferred and for soft rays you can simply stack some paper foils.

for my experiments i use a commercial stainless steel feeler and a stack of 6 layers of alluminium (each 1mm thick) glued togheter as a ladder

Th


EDIT
****************************************** *********************************
the reciprocity law will surely be a problem, but not a big problem because you dont' need such exposure times; from few minutes to half hour are enough.
i made my first experiments at short distances using an ignition coil to drive the tube and photo PAPER (soooo insensitive) with only few minutes of exposures.


Th
this was one of my first radiographic image and was recorded on a photo paper (in-sensitivity of 3 ISO !!!) at 3cm distance from the tube with 3 minutes of exposure time and without any intensifier medium.

Ciao!
Fabio.
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Proud Mary
Fri Nov 20 2009, 11:56PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Hi Fabio, yes I have some sets of feeler gauges, but wouldn't expect the soft X-rays in which I am interested to go through any of them in any measurable amount of time.

The X-ray world below 10keV is where the frontier is now, and I am presently interested in demountable tubes that might go below 6keV , which is my current limit of detection with Ne/Kr proportional counters

I have some PIN photodiodes which can go below that with high quantum efficiency (after removing the lens) but have a lot of trouble with the high-Z electrometer inputs for them, which I am beginning to fear may be beyond my small ability and budget.

Over the last year, Plazmatron (a good pal and great sounding-board for new X-ray ideas) and I have considered all kinds of really exciting and interesting sources, some of them almost unbelievably simple, until you begin to think through the problems of quantifying X-rays below 5keV, and picking out the photons from the noise floor.


But there's no point copying what others have already done, which is why I have always been an admirer of your own work, Fabio,

love,


Stella X smile


Edit: I have prepared a number of filters - Ag, Zr, Ti, Au, Cu, Ni, Mn - as Christmas gifts for friends. They are mounted in 35mm frames, for easy use and change over, so if you'd like to go down on my small Christmas gift list, do please let me know.
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Fabio
Sun Nov 22 2009, 12:13AM
Fabio Registered Member #122 Joined: Fri Feb 10 2006, 12:55PM
Location: Milano Italy
Posts: 148
Hi Stella!

Hi Fabio, yes I have some sets of feeler gauges, but wouldn't expect the soft X-rays in which I am interested to go through any of them in any measurable amount of time.


do you considered the possibility of build a ladder with kitchen alluminium foil?
maybe you cannot use the glue for fix them together so the calibrated absorber cannot resist for a long time but... who cares?

another possibility can be a ladder made with scotch tape, it surely not pose any gluing problem (but of course the alluminum is a standard material for calibrated shields and the scotch tape obviously not!) smile


The X-ray world below 10keV is where the frontier is now, and I am presently interested in demountable tubes that might go below 6keV , which is my current limit of detection with Ne/Kr proportional counters


you can play with just few hundreds of electronvolt if you build the x-ray tube inside a bell jar and of course you insert the detector inside the same jar; with this configuration the danger of ionizing radiation will become lowered to zero and just the danger of implosion will remain.



I have some PIN photodiodes which can go below that with high quantum efficiency (after removing the lens) but have a lot of trouble with the high-Z electrometer inputs for them, which I am beginning to fear may be beyond my small ability and budget.


electrometer-grade operational amplifier aren't so expensive on the market, but working with teraohm may be problematic.

i suggest you to build at least the first amplifier stage directly under the photodiode, this amplifier should be made inside a grounded metal case with high quality components and without the printed circuit board, just keep all terminals short, build the circuit in air using a low voltage solder iron and all ESD precautions, then wash it twice with acetone, dry it with a hairdryer and never touch it anymore to avoid contaminations.

the other stages can be either made inside of the same shielding box (before washing) or connected with a shielded cable.

for the last possibility you can consider a modified smoke detector (ionization chamber type), his chamber have a really high impedence so there is an electrometer grade amplifier inside.


Ciao!
Fabio.
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Proud Mary
Sun Nov 22 2009, 04:34AM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Fabio wrote ...

Hi Stella!

Hi Fabio, yes I have some sets of feeler gauges, but wouldn't expect the soft X-rays in which I am interested to go through any of them in any measurable amount of time.


do you considered the possibility of build a ladder with kitchen alluminium foil?
maybe you cannot use the glue for fix them together so the calibrated absorber cannot resist for a long time but... who cares?

another possibility can be a ladder made with scotch tape, it surely not pose any gluing problem (but of course the alluminum is a standard material for calibrated shields and the scotch tape obviously not!) smile


The X-ray world below 10keV is where the frontier is now, and I am presently interested in demountable tubes that might go below 6keV , which is my current limit of detection with Ne/Kr proportional counters


you can play with just few hundreds of electronvolt if you build the x-ray tube inside a bell jar and of course you insert the detector inside the same jar; with this configuration the danger of ionizing radiation will become lowered to zero and just the danger of implosion will remain.



I have some PIN photodiodes which can go below that with high quantum efficiency (after removing the lens) but have a lot of trouble with the high-Z electrometer inputs for them, which I am beginning to fear may be beyond my small ability and budget.


electrometer-grade operational amplifier aren't so expensive on the market, but working with teraohm may be problematic.

i suggest you to build at least the first amplifier stage directly under the photodiode, this amplifier should be made inside a grounded metal case with high quality components and without the printed circuit board, just keep all terminals short, build the circuit in air using a low voltage solder iron and all ESD precautions, then wash it twice with acetone, dry it with a hairdryer and never touch it anymore to avoid contaminations.

the other stages can be either made inside of the same shielding box (before washing) or connected with a shielded cable.

for the last possibility you can consider a modified smoke detector (ionization chamber type), his chamber have a really high impedence so there is an electrometer grade amplifier inside.

Hi Fabio,

at the moment I have the PIN photodiode mounted inside the body of a BNC chassis socket - the open end covered with a disc of Be foil - and mounted at one end of a
heavy die-cast alumiminium box

After several failed attempts to 'harden' the circuit sufficiently using electrometer grade FETs, I decided to use a subminiature electrometer pentode, and have adjusted it so 1mA FSD corresponds to 5 x 10E-10 photocurrent in a BPX65 with the lens taken out. I am making a little oven for it using a 2N3055 as the heating element controlled by a glass-bead thermistor.

I think we'll have to call this design retro-chic, is[/i] only a hobby, Fabio, an alternative to knitting and collecting Barbie Dolls smile

Stella


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