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A Math Problem

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Chris Russell
Wed Mar 11 2009, 04:46PM Print
Chris Russell ... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
With apologies to those who have already seen this, I am borrowing this from xkcd because I found it to be an interesting problem. I'm curious to see how people from 4hv.org will handle it. There's only one correct answer, but a fair number of people seem to intuitively arrive at the wrong answer -- myself included -- if they're not familiar with probabilities. At any rate, here's the problem:

Sue and Bob take turns rolling a 6-sided die. Once either person rolls a 6, the game is over. Sue rolls first. If she doesn’t roll a 6, Bob rolls the die; if he doesn’t roll a 6, Sue rolls again. They continue taking turns until one of them rolls a 6.

Bob rolls a 6 before Sue.

What is the probability Bob rolled the 6 on his second turn?

For argument's sake, when discussing the problem, assume that rolling a 6 is considered "winning." It could just as easily be a loss, but it gets confusing when people with contrary assumptions get together.

Here's the answer, encoded in ROT13:

gjb friragl svir bire gjryir avargl fvk, be nobhg gjragl-bar cbvag bar creprag

Did you get the right answer? If so, how did you get there? If not, what did you get, and how did you get there?
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Proud Mary
Wed Mar 11 2009, 05:04PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
The probability remains the same no matter how often it is done.
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Electroholic
Wed Mar 11 2009, 07:49PM
Electroholic Registered Member #191 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 02:01AM
Location: Esbjerg Denmark
Posts: 720
you sure the "correct answer"is right? coz it can't be more than 1/6.

The probability rolling a 6 with a fair die is ALWAYS 1/6.
And every event is an independent event.

But in this case, there are a few other conditions.
1, Sue rolled a non-six (5/6)
2, Bob rolled a non-six (5/6)
3, Sue rolled a non-six (5/6)
4, Bob rolled a SIX (1/6)

multiply them all together and you should get the answer.
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rp181
Wed Mar 11 2009, 08:41PM
rp181 Registered Member #1062 Joined: Tue Oct 16 2007, 02:01AM
Location:
Posts: 1529
Just because, Ile make a program to solve it =)
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Chris Russell
Wed Mar 11 2009, 09:31PM
Chris Russell ... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Electroholic wrote ...

you sure the "correct answer"is right? coz it can't be more than 1/6.

The probability rolling a 6 with a fair die is ALWAYS 1/6.
And every event is an independent event.

But in this case, there are a few other conditions.
1, Sue rolled a non-six (5/6)
2, Bob rolled a non-six (5/6)
3, Sue rolled a non-six (5/6)
4, Bob rolled a SIX (1/6)

multiply them all together and you should get the answer.

Don't worry, the answer is correct. It is true that Bob's chance of rolling a 6 on any given turn is always 1/6, but that's not what the problem is asking. This is a conditional probability. What we want to know is, of the games that Bob wins, what fraction does he win on his second turn, as opposed to any other turn? Multiplying 5/6 * 56 * 5/6 * 1/6 tells us Bob's odds of winning on his second turn, but not his odds of winning on the second turn if we already know that he must win.

It is a problem that is more complex than it initially appears.
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Steve Conner
Thu Mar 12 2009, 10:43AM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
I see the logic behind it as follows:
In order for Bob to get to a second turn, the following conditions must apply:

1. Sue must not win on her first turn (probability of this condition = 5/6)
2. Bob must not win on his first turn (p=5/6)
3. Sue must not win on her second turn (p=5/6)

So the odds of getting to this point is (5/6) cubed.

4. Now it's Bob's second turn and he must roll a 6, the probability of which is 1/6.

So I make that (5*5*5*1)/(6*6*6*6)

If we want the odds counting only those games that Bob wins, as Chris just mentioned, then I guess we should multiply the above answer by two. The reasoning behind this is that if the die is fair, then Bob will win 50% of games. Unless Sue gets an advantage by rolling first, which I can't be bothered calculating. (Edit: she does, and I didn't know how to calculate it, hence the answer below is slightly wrong)

So I guess the answer is (5*5*5*2)/(6*6*6*6) = 0.192
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Chris Russell
Thu Mar 12 2009, 07:38PM
Chris Russell ... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Steve McConner wrote ...

I see the logic behind it as follows:
In order for Bob to get to a second turn, the following conditions must apply:

1. Sue must not win on her first turn (probability of this condition = 5/6)
2. Bob must not win on his first turn (p=5/6)
3. Sue must not win on her second turn (p=5/6)

So the odds of getting to this point is (5/6) cubed.

4. Now it's Bob's second turn and he must roll a 6, the probability of which is 1/6.

So I make that (5*5*5*1)/(6*6*6*6)

If we want the odds counting only those games that Bob wins, as Chris just mentioned, then I guess we should multiply the above answer by two. The reasoning behind this is that if the die is fair, then Bob will win 50% of games. Unless Sue gets an advantage by rolling first, which I can't be bothered calculating. (Edit: she does, and I didn't know how to calculate it, hence the answer below is slightly wrong)

So I guess the answer is (5*5*5*2)/(6*6*6*6) = 0.192

Excellent reasoning! Much better than I did on my first several attempts. Sue does get an advantage, that can be calculated as such:

Let B be the probability that Bob will win on any given turn. Let S be the probability that Sue will win on any given turn. B = (5/6) * S, since Bob can only win if Sue doesn't roll a 6. Also, by definition, S = 1 - B. Anyone up to applying this system of equations to Conner's reasoning above to see what happens?
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neuralinhibitor
Fri Mar 13 2009, 06:03AM
neuralinhibitor Registered Member #2023 Joined: Fri Mar 13 2009, 05:53AM
Location:
Posts: 7
Here's my solution:

The trick is to divide the probability of Bob winning on his second turn by the probability Bob wins in general.

p(Bob wins on his second turn) = 5^3/6^4

p(Bob wins in general) = p(Bob wins on his first turn + Bob wins on his second turn + Bob wins on his third turn + ...) = (5/6)(1/6) + (5/6)(5/6)(5/6)(1/6) + ... = sum( (1/6)(5/6)^(2k + 1), k=0, infinity) = (5/11). Note that p(Alice wins) is 6/11.

So p(it's Bob's second turn | Bob wins) = (5^3/6^4) / (5/11) = the answer.

I love probability problems like this because there's usually a hidden level of complexity and elegance.
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Chris Russell
Fri Mar 13 2009, 06:15AM
Chris Russell ... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
neuralinhibitor wrote ...

Here's my solution:

The trick is to divide the probability of Bob winning on his second turn by the probability Bob wins in general.

p(Bob wins on his second turn) = 5^3/6^4

p(Bob wins in general) = p(Bob wins on his first turn + Bob wins on his second turn + Bob wins on his third turn + ...) = (5/6)(1/6) + (5/6)(5/6)(5/6)(1/6) + ... = sum( (1/6)(5/6)^(2k + 1), k=0, infinity) = (5/11). Note that p(Alice wins) is 6/11.

So p(it's Bob's second turn | Bob wins) = (5^3/6^4) / (6/11) = the answer.

I love probability problems like this because there's usually a hidden level of complexity and elegance.

Close! p(Sue wins) is indeed 6/11, but in your final equation, p(it's Bob's second turn | Bob wins) = (5^3/6^4) / (6/11), the last term should be Bob's probability of winning, not Sue's (or Alice, whomever). You stated the method of working it out quite correctly at the top of your post, so I assume it was just a typo.
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neuralinhibitor
Fri Mar 13 2009, 06:21AM
neuralinhibitor Registered Member #2023 Joined: Fri Mar 13 2009, 05:53AM
Location:
Posts: 7
Yeah, that was a typo. I've fixed it now for clarity's sake.
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