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Electrostatic balloon - result not as good as expected

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Antonio

Sat Jan 03 2009, 12:19AM

Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644

"Lifters" don't "interact with the quantum background", as well as any macroscopic electromagnetic system.... Alternatives to a VDG are any other electrostatic machine (50 kV is easy to obtain), or if you need more than a few microamperes, a big flyback transformer (difficult to obtain more than 30 kV), or a suitable Cockroft-Walton multiplier (diodes, capacitors, and an AC supply).

basil_brush

Sat Jan 03 2009, 12:26AM

Registered Member #903 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 09:51PM
Location:
Posts: 8

Ok thanks. Yes, I imagine I'll need a good current because corona losses will be high on a cylinder shape, especially at the ends - though I can try to bead the edges to reduce this. For good results with simple equipment I'm thinking either Marx generator or flyback. I have a flyback from a monitor, it's one of the modern diode ones though. I see there's a very good recent thread here on using such a flyback with a 555 or ZVS driver which can guide me.

To be precise the capacitor has a positive and a negative electrode which are charged up and left in that state, and also a third electrode in between those two. The function of this third central electrode is to modulate the electric field between the outer electrodes. This third electrode is connected through a coil to the third electrode of another identical capacitor. Current can then efficiently slosh back and forth between the modulating electrodes of the two capacitors. The coil has a second winding which can be used to induce oscillations and/or monitor the oscillations.

I have one question though. The flyback I have will probably give me -25 kV roughly, but I also need +25 kV as well. So what does you think would be best, a double ended Marx or two flybacks? I guess flybacks can give better current because they usually fire at much higher frequencies than Marxes, is that correct?

basil_brush

Sat Jan 03 2009, 12:43AM

Registered Member #903 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 09:51PM
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Posts: 8

Antonio wrote ...
"Lifters" don't "interact with the quantum background",

While lifters rely mostly on ion wind for their movement the Biefeld-Brown effect is still participating. As NASA discovered, asymeteric capacitors will move in a vacuum, but with much less force than if a gas is present.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm

So to use it for space travel people will have find a way to maximise the Biefeld-Brown effect to a point where it becomes usable.

basil_brush

Sat Jan 03 2009, 01:42AM

Registered Member #903 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 09:51PM
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On this page someone is using a 25 kV flyback to power a marx:

http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/marxthree.html

After studying that page I've come to the conclusion that I could put a capacitor on the output of my flyback and take the -25 kV from before the capacitor and take the +25 kV from after the capacitor. I guess the two outputs would have different phase and/or magnitude of current due to one going through a capacitor and the other not, but would that work?

Firefox

Sat Jan 03 2009, 02:19AM

Registered Member #1389 Joined: Thu Mar 13 2008, 12:50AM
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 346

Out of curiosity, what are you hoping to do with this experiment?

basil_brush

Sat Jan 03 2009, 04:58AM

Registered Member #903 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 09:51PM
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Posts: 8

The inventor is a strong proponent of aether theory and his analysis says radial electric fields cause the quantum vacuum to spin, thus losing sync with the surrounding vacuum and potentially making energy available if you can tap into it. This capacitor system is his best guess at how to do it. As it's a simple enough device, I thought what the hell, may as well try it. If it works then a higher than expected voltage or current should be seen across the coil, or maybe a longer than expected time for an oscillation to decay, i.e. any evidence of energy other than what you put into it from your circuit. I'm quite optimistic as many previous patents, going back even to the 19th century, with concentric electrodes have claimed anomalous output or behaviour. But only testing will tell.

Antonio

Sat Jan 03 2009, 01:30PM

Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644

A Marx generator produces just a pulse, not DC. If this serves your objective, is a simple solution. To get +/- 25 kV from flybacks you will have to find flyback transformers without an internal diode, and add the diode externally in order to obtain negative output. Normal flybacks produce positive high voltage, and there is no way to invert it. With two transformers it will then be easy to obtain +/- 25 kV.

Dr. Dark Current

Sat Jan 03 2009, 02:56PM

Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384

Antonio wrote ...

With two transformers it will then be easy to obtain +/- 25 kV.

Or with just one and a fullwave doubler.

DrZoidberg

Sat Jan 03 2009, 03:44PM

Registered Member #350 Joined: Mon Mar 27 2006, 05:14PM
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Posts: 106

If you want the electric field to be as strong as possible you should place the cylinders into an airtight box and fill it with carbon dioxide. Also higher pressures will help. 100psi would be a good value I think.
That way you can use much higher voltages or reduce the distance between the cylinders without a spark jumping over.

Although, thinking about it, that's probably a stupid idea. It's much easier to just put the cylinders into a box filled with oil. You can submerge the flyback or multiplier into the oil bath as well. That will increase the performance a lot and reduce losses to a minimum.

You could also try magnetic fields instead. They can be made much more powerful then electric fields because they are not limited by the breakdown strength of air.
e.g. The magnetic field of a neodymium magnet has an energy density so high that you would need 500MV/m to create an electric field of equal strength.
That means if your cylinders are 1 inch apart you would have to apply 12.5 million volts to them.

Chris Russell

Sat Jan 03 2009, 08:19PM

... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052

A couple of notes for this thread:

One, pseudoscience has no place here. The Biefeld-Brown effect is not antigravity. It only works in the air:

. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's fine, but check it at the door, or the only result will be a lot of unhappiness.

Two, stop double posting. Go back and edit your previous post, rather than making two posts in a row. Re-read the rules regarding double posts if there's any confusion.

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