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Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
Dr. Shock wrote ...
wrote ...
No, I said I can send the output discharge through the breaker (or a fuse) and nothig will happened...Don't make me look like I'm stupid. I know very well that the loading current of the Marx is very small!
Do you really think a circuit breaker is going to be tripped by a single output pulse of a marx generator?
Apparently we do not understand each other. I'm the one claiming, that a fuse (or a breaker) connected in series with ultrashort pulse discharge of Marx generator WILL NOT cause any tripping (burning) response despite the amp peak can be many hundreds time bigger than what the breaker (or the fuse) is designed for... Forget the fuse or breaker which is on the mains - that's not the one I'm talking about, I'm talking about a hypothetical breaker which stands on my table and is connected to the Marx HV output...
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
wrote ...
Apparently we do not understand each other. I'm the one claiming, that a fuse (or a breaker) connected in series with ultrashort pulse discharge of Marx generator WILL NOT cause any tripping (burning) response despite the amp peak can be many hundreds time bigger than what the breaker (or the fuse) is designed for... Forget the fuse or breaker which is on the mains - that's not the one I'm talking about, I'm talking about a breaker which stands on my table connected to the Marx HV output...
Why anyone would connect a circuit breaker to your Marx HV output is beyond me . . .
. . . however it is quite clear you do lack the fundamental understanding of how a circuit breaker works in the first place.
Firstly, a circuit breaker is rated for only a few hundred volts. Your experiment is invalid from the get-go as your attempting to verify operation of a device WAAAAYYYY outside its intended range of operation.
Secondly, most circuit breakers are thermal devices. When the bimetal strip inside them heat up, they will trip. Now, back to your Marx Generator. The discharge from a Marx Generator is a single discharge, and unless your Marx Generator is VERY large, the discharge can be considered for all intenstive purposes, adiabatic. I'm sure if you discharged your marx into a small piece of wire, the wire would not even be warm. Same with a circuit breaker.
Finally if you ran your Marx generator continously (say your 150kHz), and IF (thats a BIG BIG IF) it could withstand the voltage across the terminals from a Marx discharge, then yes, it would likely trip the breaker assuming the current (over time) is sufficient to trip it.
Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
Dr. Shock wrote ...
wrote ...
Apparently we do not understand each other. I'm the one claiming, that a fuse (or a breaker) connected in series with ultrashort pulse discharge of Marx generator WILL NOT cause any tripping (burning) response despite the amp peak can be many hundreds time bigger than what the breaker (or the fuse) is designed for... Forget the fuse or breaker which is on the mains - that's not the one I'm talking about, I'm talking about a breaker which stands on my table connected to the Marx HV output...
Why anyone would connect a circuit breaker to your Marx HV output is beyond me . . .
. . . however it is quite clear you do lack the fundamental understanding of how a circuit breaker works in the first place.
Firstly, a circuit breaker is rated for only a few hundred volts. Your experiment is invalid from the get-go as your attempting to verify operation of a device WAAAAYYYY outside its intended range of operation.
Secondly, most circuit breakers are thermal devices. When the bimetal strip inside them heat up, they will trip. Now, back to your Marx Generator. The discharge from a Marx Generator is a single discharge, and unless your Marx Generator is VERY large, the discharge can be considered for all intenstive purposes, adiabatic. I'm sure if you discharged your marx into a small piece of wire, the wire would not even be warm. Same with a circuit breaker.
Finally if you ran your Marx generator continously (say your 150kHz), and IF (thats a BIG BIG IF) it could withstand the voltage across the terminals from a Marx discharge, then yes, it would likely trip the breaker assuming the current (over time) is sufficient to trip it.
Oh my good Daniel! I'm saying exactly the same like you, but for some reason you don't understand my words. So, let's make things absolutely clear: Very short pulse of a very high amp peak will not trip a breaker! That's what I'm claiming all the time and that's what the whole thread is about. Please read my previous posts carefully and you must see it. I came up with the Marx example to support exactly what you say not to deny it. In case I'm still not clear enough, please contact me over the internal mail, I’m afraid that people must be sick of the discussion we have here...
Registered Member #14
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:04PM
Location: Prato/italy
Posts: 383
I think that all the power will gone wasted into resistive losses
A simple example
think the electrical grid as a 200mOhms equivalent resistance
you are pulling 300A 100us at 1%duty cycle (100 pulses per second) pulses at 250V, this means you are dropping 300*0.2 = 60V
so your load voltage will be 190V (not considering rectification, this is purely theoretical)
Total energy for each pulse: 7,5J, of which 5,7J are useful energy and 1,8J are wasted
Average power: Total power: 750Watts Power dissipation: 180Watts Useful power: 570Watts or 76% efficiency
the 24% of wasted energy is the energy you want to steal probably
I don't think that resistance of home and external grid is smaller than 200mOhms (my neighbour was using an arc welder, and i noticed that anytime the probe touched the piece my home lights dimmed noticeably)
Probably it will not trip the breaker, but it will totally screw up the grid, distorting the power factor (unless you sincronize your pulser with the 100Hz peak-to-peak rectified mains voltage)
And, I am not fooled, i think it is simply a waste of time.
Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
Please let's end up this thread as non-sense. I have no interest in building the device anymore since most of the arguments mentioned here are pretty persuasive and it would be only loss of time. Thanks for interesting discussion anyway.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
wrote ...
Very short pulse of a very high amp peak will not trip a breaker! That's what I'm claiming all the time and that's what the whole thread is about.
No, ONE (1) single short pulse of a very high amp peak will not trip a breaker. This is different than your proposal which would have a continous series of very short pulses. There is a difference. The (1) single short pulse can be considered adiabatic. However, the continous case (your proposal), the bimetal contacts in the circuit breaker would see a cumulative heating effect and trip the breaker.
Registered Member #347
Joined: Sat Mar 25 2006, 08:26AM
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 106
There is one way to do it, but only if you have current transformer metering (unless you have a 400A or above service, you almost certainly don't). If you set up some circuit that makes sure current always flows in one direction in the line, the transformer will saturate and not read any current. A simple diode won't work, it would allow the transformer core flux to reset during times of zero current.
The circuit would need to modulate the DC current draw so that during one half cycle the current is higher than the other half cycle, and then you will have net power flow, but the meter will not measure any power.
Registered Member #816
Joined: Sun Jun 03 2007, 07:29PM
Location:
Posts: 156
A crazy Idea just occurred to me, if you look at this for just what it is, an aluminium disk on an almost frictionless bearing, (in an old type meter at least). Could it be made to rotate using a couple of A.C coils or electromagnets, in proximity to the case or around it? Clearly one coil needs to be fed with phase shifted voltage in respect to the other to create a rotating field effect.
Maybe just as an experiment, sit an old elect meter on a table to see if it can be made to spin round with no wires connected to it at all. Obviously this is assuming the case is not made of metal or there isn’t any internal shielding fitted.
I know this was not you asked at the start, and would have the opposite effect to making it slow down, but just a theoretical thought.
Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
Dr. Shock wrote ...
There is a difference. The (1) single short pulse can be considered adiabatic. However, the continous case (your proposal), the bimetal contacts in the circuit breaker would see a cumulative heating effect and trip the breaker.
Yes, you right, but I'm talking about 2KW of total power in the pulses. And the 20A breaker should stand over 4KW. So my device will not trip the breaker.I stand on this...
Registered Member #1225
Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2253
quicksilver wrote ...
Realistically the concept of "Fooling the power meter legally" is a misnomer. No method of "fooling" the meter is legal. So in reality the concept is how to get away with it. Unfortunately a lot more motivated collection of people than would ever be thinking of how to get away with it, have been employed in how to retain the investment.
Bottom line is that theft is theft & steps are always taken to prevent theft from occurring.
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Fooling the power meter "legally"
