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Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
The amateur construction and firing of a rocket of almost any type would most certainly be viewed as a serious crime in the United Kingdom, where even the innocent can face 'explosives' and 'terror' charges for much less than this. There are a few rocketry amateurs in the UK who are permitted to fire their rockets on Ministry of Defence ranges, [once they have obtained licences and other authorizations] but things have become more and more restrictive over the last 20 years.
A man has just been sent to prison for having in his possession 'without sufficient excuse' the plans of a small rocket, so Dr Shock's advice should be taken very seriously indeed by amateur scientists living in countries where words like 'terror' and 'national security' are repeated endlessly like holy mantras.
Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
I do not understand why all of you are so sticked to the rocket nonsense. Balloon is cheaper, more efficient in lifting heavy things and mainly - it is legal!
According to the safety issues: I think that sitting inside an earth grounded car next to the experimental station would be pretty enough.
Dr. Shock, is it rocket thing which makes you angry or the fact that somebody could trigger the lightening and make a nice video or even very high energy experiment? Despite the experimental proposal described by Logan sounds rather funny I personally like the idea very much. Yes it is dangerous but I do not see any problem in discussing it. But, I do agree that sending rockets into the sky should not be discussed here, that's really stupid.
Registered Member #1103
Joined: Mon Nov 05 2007, 06:02PM
Location: Houston
Posts: 80
Haha, I'm surprised by the reaction from a select few of individuals. Regardless, I do believe the white powder is a metal oxide of some sort, and will NOT exhibit any strange properties. I planned on using a vacuum to try and replicate the whole ORMEs mess properly, especially since most proponents of ORMEs say that a vacuum is needed.
Also, I will stick to the theoretical, and from what I understand, I have been sticking to the theoretical in this thread. Sure, the concept may be dangerous if you're ignorant and don't take the PROPER safety precautions. Of course, most experiments on this board is dangerous if proper safety precautions aren't taken.
Also, I've decided that a high powered rocket won't be needed for this experiment. I'm sure I could just use a small model rocket from walmart. Keep in mind, these are REGULATIONS and not LAWS. There is a big difference, and the worst they can do is give you a fine or remove your model rocketry license (however if they get the authorities involved, then one better pray to some deity, because I'm sure the gestapo will frown on such scientific experiments). Balloons might be much better, especially since I can remove the stigma of using a model rocket which might cause "damage" or some sort, or could be used for some kind of "terrorism." I'm 100% balloons would accomplish the same thing.
Keep this in my people: I am not stupid, and it would be definite suicide to carry out such an experiment if one were even slightly clueless.
It's a sad day in America when scientific advancement is held back by social fears of terrorism and national security. I long for the days of old, when science was held above all else. Harry, you are absolutely right, if they want to get you for something, they will.
Thanks for the constructive replies everybody. I've already got all the information I need to start designing the experiment and setting appropriate parameters. You may continue discussion in this thread, but otherwise I would beware since we've already had a moderator chime in and set the law down.
Registered Member #152
Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
Logan, some time ago I was investigating "orme" (and I quit because there was no real evidence that it is something special), I believe I saw some "wet" methods of producing it, which does not require vacuum or enormous temperatures and involves just common chemicals. Just in case you want to make some of the "stuff" this could be helpful.
Registered Member #1103
Joined: Mon Nov 05 2007, 06:02PM
Location: Houston
Posts: 80
Did you ever get a chance to test it properly using real science? I'm tired of all this mess, and I'm sure people are being POISONED by these metal oxides. Perhaps we can discuss this matter some more in a PM?
Let's try to keep this thread somewhat on topic, because I know there is a rule about discussing anything related to pseudoscience.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
wrote ...
Dr. Shock, is it rocket thing which makes you angry or the fact that somebody could trigger the lightening and make a nice video or even very high energy experiment?
Well, for one, its the fact that both model and high power rocketry are regulated out the wazoo, and all we need right now is someone making headlines cause they happened to do something really stupid with a model rocket. Its bad enough we need a friggin' ATF explosives license to purchase high power rocketry engines / reloads which several years ago were over the counter goods.
As a member of both professional rocketry organizations, and several local state organizations, which i'm heavily involved with, i find this whole thread a bit irresponsible. I'm all for scientific research, but it should be done through proper channels with necessary permits, etc... There are thousands of amateur rocketry enthusiasts in the US and we are all expected to follow specific regulations regarding the use of those rockets. So should you.
wrote ...
I'm sure I could just use a small model rocket from walmart. Keep in mind, these are REGULATIONS and not LAWS. There is a big difference, and the worst they can do is give you a fine or remove your model rocketry license (however if they get the authorities involved, then one better pray to some deity, because I'm sure the gestapo will frown on such scientific experiments).
Again, its this attitude which makes you look very irresponsible. Sure, an individual getting caught doing something like this would likely just get a slap on the wrist, but the backlash is really going to hurt the rocket community as a whole. There are many hearings going on right now regarding regulations in the highest courts in this country, and all we need some lawyers getting more fodder to throw as ammunition against our cause.
Look at green laser pointers. This was once a tool used by astronomers all over the country to help educate the public at star parties to the night sky. Then one day, some moron decided to shine it at an airplane. Now, the entire astronomical community has to deal with extra scrutinity when using these laser pointers legitimately.
Again, i have no problem with theoretical discussion.
Registered Member #1103
Joined: Mon Nov 05 2007, 06:02PM
Location: Houston
Posts: 80
wrote ... Again, its this attitude which makes you look very irresponsible. Sure, an individual getting caught doing something like this would likely just get a slap on the wrist, but the backlash is really going to hurt the rocket community as a whole.
Dr. Shock, please forgive me if I came off as being irresponsible. That was definitely not my intention. I was hoping to have a serious thread, but apparently from your perspective I have been being irresponsible. So I guess next time I will keep these "wacky" ideas to myself, instead of sharing them with the community at large.
Please don't take this in the wrong way. I'm just trying to stand up for myself, and defend my honor.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
Logan Kennedy wrote ...
wrote ... Again, its this attitude which makes you look very irresponsible. Sure, an individual getting caught doing something like this would likely just get a slap on the wrist, but the backlash is really going to hurt the rocket community as a whole.
Dr. Shock, please forgive me if I came off as being irresponsible. That was definitely not my intention. I was hoping to have a serious thread, but apparently from your perspective I have been being irresponsible. So I guess next time I will keep these "wacky" ideas to myself, instead of sharing them with the community at large.
Please don't take this in the wrong way. I'm just trying to stand up for myself, and defend my honor.
Not a problem and i apologize if i appear to be overreacting, but with all the political fall-out recently in model / high power rocketry, we need to be vigilant in keeping the sport legitimate and make sure everyone follows regulations, otherwise the fallout will definitely impact others enjoying the sport. There is already mucho scrutiny, all the way up through the supreme court of the US regarding ATF regulations, etc..., so we need to keep a low key.
Plus we do care about your safetly. Simply being in a lightning storm is extremely dangerous as it is. Launching said rocket in a storm just increases the risk by magnitudes. And if any spectators come along, you just put them at risk too!
Registered Member #1103
Joined: Mon Nov 05 2007, 06:02PM
Location: Houston
Posts: 80
wrote ... Not a problem and i apologize if i appear to be overreacting, but with all the political fall-out recently in model / high power rocketry, we need to be vigilant in keeping the sport legitimate and make sure everyone follows regulations, otherwise the fallout will definitely impact others enjoying the sport. There is already mucho scrutiny, all the way up through the supreme court of the US regarding ATF regulations, etc..., so we need to keep a low key.
Quite understandable, and now that I see you're definitely being rational, and not just saying these things to spite me, I can respect your opinion much more. I probably should've thought about the legal consequences more, but such things don't weight well on the mind of most amateur scientists/experimenters, and it never occurred to me that I might have issues with legality and other regulatory problems.
wrote ... Plus we do care about your safetly. Simply being in a lightning storm is extremely dangerous as it is. Launching said rocket in a storm just increases the risk by magnitudes. And if any spectators come along, you just put them at risk too!
A very valid point, and all safety precautions should be taken before such an experiment is conducted. The idea is to not do this when there is a major storm, but rather when the sky is moderately cloudy with a slight chance of rain. Conducting such an experiment while a storm is in progress WOULD be stupid and irresponsible. Theoretically this experiment would have to be carried out in an area where spectators aren't likely to come along, perhaps private property of some sort. Everything would be controlled remotely from a few hundred yards away, and even then it would be wise to be in some sort of Faraday cage (car?) in the event of something going wrong.
The moral of the story is this: when considering these kind of high energy experiments one should take heed and follow all necessary precautions, and even then, one should be very concerned about safety, and the safety of others.
... not Russel! Registered Member #1
Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Looks like I'm a little late to the party. I can find no evidence that launching a model rocket into a cloud is illegal in the United States, which I'm assuming is the area of interest right now. The NFPA probably gives good advice to follow, but their codes are not law. Here's what the FAA has to say about model rockets in FAR 101:
Sec. 101.1 - Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes rules governing the operation in the United States, of the following:
(1) Except as provided for in §101.7, any balloon that is moored to the surface of the earth or an object thereon and that has a diameter of more than 6 feet or a gas capacity of more than 115 cubic feet.
(2) Except as provided for in §101.7, any kite that weighs more than 5 pounds and is intended to be flown at the end of a rope or cable.
(3) Any unmanned rocket except:
(i) Aerial firework displays; and,
(ii) Model rockets:
(a) Using not more than four ounces of propellant;
(b) Using a slow-burning propellant;
(c) Made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic, containing no substantial metal parts and weighing not more than 16 ounces, including the propellant; and
(d) Operated in a manner that does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.
Thus, model rockets are not subject to regulation by the FAA as long as you meet conditions a through d above. d is the trickiest, as you could theoretically be asked to prove that you are not creating a hazard of any sort, which means that you'll have to really do your homework into lightning protection and safety. c is also problematic, in that you can scarcely argue that a few hundred feet of trailing wire is not a substantial metal part. You'd have to do some research into whether a strike could be triggered with some sort of conductive exhaust instead. At any rate, I don't see any reason to restrict discussion of the subject, as long as adequate safety precautions are taken, and laws are being followed.
Interestingly, a smallish balloon does not have any restrictions on the metallic content, as you can see above. That might be a far better bet, and certainly a less legally troubled alternative.
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Rocket Triggered Lightning
