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Registered Member #1208
Joined: Thu Jan 03 2008, 05:30PM
Location: Chesterland, OH
Posts: 154
I was just wondering how easily potassium permaganate (KMnO4) will react with liquid and solid fuels. I know it burns glycerin on contact after a short delay, but what about other liquids such as acetone, petrol (gas) or even molten wax, ground charcoal or any other practical fuel.
I am asking for several reasons:
1.rocket fuel 2. improvised fuse to ignite said rockets 3. substitute for glycerin in the spontaneous reaction that i may use to ignite thermite.
i would LOVE to use KNO3, but it is kind of hard for me to get at a reasonable price (stump remover costs more than KMnO4)
if anyone can suggest some fuels for said rockets that aren't that sensitive, please do.
thanks, ramses
edit: I completely ruled out KNO3 because of availability edit: substitute for glycerin is no longer needed.
Registered Member #1262
Joined: Fri Jan 25 2008, 05:22AM
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 451
I didn't think KNO3 was that bad price wise but... you can always make KNO3 by allowing "Agent Brown" and "Liquid Gold" to sour together for months and then washing the saltpetre out.
I read KMnO4 is used in a solution of 80% hydrogen peroxide as rocket fuel so I can't imagine its unreasonably reactive.
Registered Member #16
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:22PM
Location: New Wilmington, PA
Posts: 554
Myself, Chris F. and Grant have done quite a bit of experimenting with KMnO4 as a rocket fuel. There are several major challenges that make it impractical.
First and foremost, its damn dense, and in general any mixture thats even remotely safe to work with is lacking the energy potential to loft the rocket very far.
Sugar and KMnO4 makes for a pretty good burn rate and is relatively safe, but there are some caveats. Its hygroscopic, and just to make things interesting, its hypergolic with water as well. Leaving some outside on a humid night or a few drops of water will set it off.
When it burns, it also leaves any number of caustic substances in the smoke and ash. Grant got caught in a smoke cloud, the contents of which then reacted with the sweat on his skin, becoming potassium hydroxide. Chris and I got our own chances at chemical burns as well, and it was quite unpleasant.
The KMnO4 and sugar mix was also friction sensitive. Metal-on-metal contact with the surfaces covered in the sugar/permangenate mix was apt to cause ignition.
Chris has done far more extensive work than I with the stuff, but I saw plenty to make me think I'll stick to other substances in the future. A majority of the 'candy rocket' and homebrew rocket community seems to follow the same line of thought. There's just too much chance of trouble, and too little pay off in performance to warrant the risks.
By the by, some time ago these guys offered both sorbitol and KNO3 by the pound at extremely affordable rates. The KNO3 went away some time ago, but I heard rumblings that they'll have it back when they come back online in the next month or two.
Registered Member #1208
Joined: Thu Jan 03 2008, 05:30PM
Location: Chesterland, OH
Posts: 154
thanks Dave, there is a good chance that this will be mixed "on the spot", except for the fuse, so hygroscopic/ water sensitive shouldn't be a big deal...
and wouldn't KNO3 produce potassium hydroxide too, I mean both reactions have K2O as a byproduct, and no matter where K2O comes from, it will do the same thing...
backyard skunkworks- i don't see the point of mixing an extremely powerful liquid oxidizer with a powerful solid oxidizer. i mean, even if they catalyze each other's decomposition, you get
KMnO4+H2O2->K2O+Mn2O+H2O+O2, which goes further, but I don't feel like doing it...
so you end up putting oxygen, steam, potassium hydroxide and metal oxide out as exhaust... what a waste...
and I really don't like the idea of having rotting sh*t in my back yard for a few months... i would rather buy stump remover...
but specifically, what about wax, acetone, or aluminum/charcoal?
I would just try it, but I don't want to buy KMnO4 if I can't use it, no matter how cheap it is(tight budget)
Banned on 02/27/2008 Registered Member #1326
Joined: Sun Feb 17 2008, 11:19PM
Location:
Posts: 49
ramses wrote ...
I was just wondering how easily potassium permaganate (KMnO4) will react with liquid and solid fuels. I know it burns glycerin on contact after a short delay, but what about other liquids such as acetone, petrol (gas) or even molten wax, ground charcoal or any other practical fuel.
I am asking for several reasons:
1.rocket fuel 2. improvised fuse to ignite said rockets 3. substitute for glycerin in the spontaneous reaction that i may use to ignite thermite.
i would LOVE to use KNO3, but it is kind of hard for me to get at a reasonable price (stump remover costs more than KMnO4)
if anyone can suggest some fuels for said rockets that aren't that sensitive, please do.
thanks, and I hope i didn't violate the rules in any way, ramses
All i know is that it was the oxidant used in thermate on 911 because copious amounts of Mn and K were found by Dr Steven Jones.
On your question, the method of approach would be to first investigate WHY is starts to burn on contact with glycerin. This itself is unusual. What is the mechanism. I am sure JACS has a paper but our public library has no acces to them even though the old papers are out of copyright. All they have are adult books and movies.
Registered Member #341
Joined: Thu Mar 23 2006, 07:41PM
Location: Northern Illinois, USA
Posts: 69
Rather than stump remover try a hydroponic gardening supply store as a source for KNO3. I can't speak for the purity, but several years ago I bought 10lbs. (the largest amount that UPS would transport) for only a few dollars a pound.
Banned on 02/27/2008 Registered Member #1326
Joined: Sun Feb 17 2008, 11:19PM
Location:
Posts: 49
ArcLight wrote ...
Rather than stump remover try a hydroponic gardening supply store as a source for KNO3. I can't speak for the purity, but several years ago I bought 10lbs. (the largest amount that UPS would transport) for only a few dollars a pound.
Registered Member #1262
Joined: Fri Jan 25 2008, 05:22AM
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 451
The s*** can be contained in a container if you really do want KNO3, just change the air each day. I've seen KNO3 as a fert. at a local hardware store, about $30 for 15lbs I think, the one advantage of the s*** method is there is no cost (except the nasal kind).
Wikipedia said KMnO3 mixed with hydrogen peroxide was a rocket fuel but... Maybe don't always trust wikipedia?
Registered Member #1208
Joined: Thu Jan 03 2008, 05:30PM
Location: Chesterland, OH
Posts: 154
Backyard skunkworks- "change the air," um yeah. not to be disgusting, but if someone forgets to "flush" overnight, that alone smells bad. one could multiply that by 90 and get the smell of "changing the air" after 3 months. no thanks! not to mention, i was hoping to get the chemicals soon, not in 3 months...
in general- for information about sources of KNO3, google has told me a lot, but none of it it practical for me... so I would consider KNO3 dead to me...
Thermite- by definition the oxidizer in thermite is a metal oxide. KMnO4 is not a metal oxide. I would also ask that you not discuss conspiracy theories about 9-11 on my thread about KMnO4, it may draw unwanted attention to the forum (more terrorist paranoia).
ArcLight- given my age, shopping at a hydroponic gardening store may draw attention to me, given that they commonly end up selling products to people growing pot in their basements.
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reactivity of KMnO4 (potassium permagantate)
