Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 100
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
One birthday today, congrats!
RateReducer (35)


Next birthdays
11/02 Download (31)
11/02 ScottH (37)
11/03 Electroguy (94)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: General Science and Electronics
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

Some random QM questions

1 2 3 
Move Thread LAN_403
Marko
Fri Oct 12 2007, 09:38PM Print
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
Hi guys;

Just some of my attempts to ask questions simplest way I know, hopefully readable and understandable to someone.


1. If we just took took a large bunch of electrons, in empty space, and compressed them up.
Say we can give them any amount of force and completely ignore coulomb forces.

What would be their final arrangement, just at the point before they collapse/degenerate into something else?

What would be the critical distance between the electrons at that very moment?

What distance would they be separated by? Planck length? Electrons have unmeasurable/unmeasured/infinitesimal diameter, and they would have to trip some kind of ''logical trigger'' which initiates degeneration breakdown.

As uncertainty in momentum goes up, it must have some critical value, non-infinite, at which collapse occurs?


2. If we pour superfluid helium into a flask, it forms an atom-thick layer over edges and seeps out of the flask to lower gravitational potential.
Question is, is this tunneling? Or if it isn't, what is? Effect is very poorly explained in general.

It would be very different from other forms of tunneling, but seems to follow the definition.


3. When electrons are stuffed across a capacitor under electric field, let's say a couple of atoms thick mosfet gate.

I'm aware that in certain occasions, electrons can tunnel over the barrier into a lower potential energy state.

But what exactly affects this?

Electrons have their de-broglie wavelength, h/p. Lower their momentum is, ''stiller'' they are their frequency is lower.

Even if there is no current moving them I must take into account their thermal kinetic energy.

So this makes me assume that more electrons will tunnel at lower temperatures.

But then I read this: Link2
So what now? How does voltage affect this? Does higher voltage across the cap make electrons ''cooler''?


4. Closely related, when voltage is placed over two electrodes in vacuum, current flows.

But I'm surprised when wikipedia describes this as a form of quantum tunneling, too.
Link2

It depends simply on voltage, has nothing to do with de Broglie wavelength and happens at macroscopic scales. Why is this tunneling after all?
But, electrons seem to escape chatode coulomb barrier surface undeterministically and gradually; is *that* a point where tunneling happens?


5. If I took a macroscopic object and simply cooled it down to incredibly low temperature, and particles are slow enough for their wavelengths to become macroscopic,... what would happen to the object?

*New:*


6. I always considered the Second Law of thermodynamics a direct consequence of Conservation of Momentum.

Faster particle will *always* transfer energy to a slower particle, and this is what keeps the law going on macroscopic scale.

But now I'm reading this: Link2


Thermodynamics is a theory of macroscopic systems at equilibrium and therefore the second law applies only to macroscopic systems with well-defined temperatures. No violation of the second law of thermodynamics has ever been observed in a macroscopic system. But on scales of a few atoms, the second law does not apply; for example, in a system of two molecules, it is possible for the slower-moving ("cold") molecule to transfer energy to the faster-moving ("hot") molecule. Such tiny systems are outside the domain of thermodynamics, but they can be investigated using statistical mechanics. For any isolated system with a mass of more than a few picograms, the second law is true to within a few parts in a million.[2]

Is that right or wrong? If it's right, how doesn't it directly violate conservation of momentum?
As far as I know, it applies universally and at quantum scales too.

There are other related things regarding SLOT I would like to ask, but I'l rather open a new thread and beat that to death if i'm not going to get completely ignored.


7. One thing I forgot about;
In a charged capacitor, electron has an energy which it would normally disspate as electric current when cap is discharged.

But if the electron happens to tunnel through dielectric, where would the energy go?

Would it simply manifest as kinetic energy just as if it would be if barrier (dielectric) is suddenly removed?


8. Any static force (example of a charged capacitor) is said to be caused by exchange of particles.

So does this mean that in capacitor example, the virtual photon is a standing wave with wavelength equal to distance between charged electrodes?

Concept of a photon that is not moving is strange.

If electric field is changing, some of virtual particles will eventually become real.
But that has nothing to do about electrode shape and position, only about frequency of the alternating field, right?











Back to top
Bjørn
Sat Oct 13 2007, 01:47AM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
2. I think the liquid helium II behaviour is almost equivalent to capillary action with for example water. The helium example being much more impressive since there is no friction between the atoms and no thermal activity so you can view it like an idealized capillary flow that can be explained with Van der Waals forces where each atom just finds the position that requires the least energy.

5. Macroscopic molecules with more than 100 atoms generate interference patterns when passed through gratings one by one. So something interesting is going on. No one can say exactly what happened to the molecule on its way but there are mathematical models that give the correct predictions of the behaviour and there are more than 10 different interpretations of the models. Neither of them makes sense as reality in the normal sense.
Back to top
Simon
Sat Oct 13 2007, 02:47AM
Simon Registered Member #32 Joined: Sat Feb 04 2006, 08:58AM
Location: Australia
Posts: 549
I like how you've set those questions out, Marko. Very readable (and very hard to answer).

1. I don't know much about this but I guess you're asking about what happens if you push electrons to the very extreme of compactness. If you keep "pushing" the electrons together (however you do this), you're really packing a huge amount of energy into a small space (as momentum uncertainty keeps rising), essentially creating a quantum black hole. You'd need a theory of quantum gravity to explain this so I suppose the ultimate answer is, "No one knows."

Tunnelling:
This comes from Schroedinger's wave equation, which takes a function of potential energy and gives a function of probability (kind of) for the particle, the wave function. As you might expect, the wave function bounces around happily where the particle energy is lower than the required potential energy for the zone. Surprisingly, this function doesn't drop straight to zero in the "forbidden zone" (where potential energy is higher than particle energy), instead it drops exponentially (more rapidly the higher the boundary). It's like the wave function leaks into any finite boundary.

So if the boundary isn't too wide, the wave function is far from zero at the other side. This is how tunnelling is possible.

What's going on, intuitively? Who knows. I tend to think of it in a spectral sense, because I like Fourier stuff. Waves are inherently smooth and don't clip sharply very easily.
Back to top
Marko
Sat Oct 13 2007, 10:22AM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
2. I think the liquid helium II behaviour is almost equivalent to capillary action with for example water. The helium example being much more impressive since there is no friction between the atoms and no thermal activity so you can view it like an idealized capillary flow that can be explained with Van der Waals forces where each atom just finds the position that requires the least energy.

So it has *nothing* to do with tunneling? Van der Waals force, hm.. that's another question to come by ^

5. Macroscopic molecules with more than 100 atoms generate interference patterns when passed through gratings one by one. So something interesting is going on. No one can say exactly what happened to the molecule on its way but there are mathematical models that give the correct predictions of the behaviour and there are more than 10 different interpretations of the models. Neither of them makes sense as reality in the normal sense.

I'm aware that in reality it may be too difficult to measure such a cold object with any resolution close to it's wavelength without increasing it's temperature to point where interesting effects cease.

I'l try to reformulate the 5. :

If we put our solid object, say a solid metal ball, into a box, completely isolated from the world, measure it and then close the box and cool it down enough to put particle's wavelengths on order of size of the box.

Then, box is quickly reheated.

One would most naturally expect to see the ball unchanged as he opens the box, but I don't know if that's true.

I see nothing that would stop the elementary particles of the object easily tunneling out of their bonds and dispersing randomly in all directions?

So would we find a bunch of scattered atoms/elementary particles/new elments around the box and our ball gone?

If we had warm/radiated environment around the box, what would be with particles which happened to tunnel out of the box completely?

Would they materialize anywhere at any distance, or just at the boundary where they will be measured/pinged with high-energy photon or fast molecule? This would imply they have some kind of foresight, so I think no.

Simon:

1. I don't know much about this but I guess you're asking about what happens if you push electrons to the very extreme of compactness. If you keep "pushing" the electrons together (however you do this), you're really packing a huge amount of energy into a small space (as momentum uncertainty keeps rising), essentially creating a quantum black hole. You'd need a theory of quantum gravity to explain this so I suppose the ultimate answer is, "No one knows."

All I want is to get some more understanding about what 'quantum state' is.

I'm ignoring the gravity and coulomb force at this point, there is only our contracting force and Pauli principle. Pick any elementary fermion you want, electron may not be best choice.

Now, how close would point-particles get before their 'different' quantum states become one and their existence ultimately impossible?

I logically think that this would need to be Planck length, but isn't that tad too small?

More difficult part, what shape would they arrange into? Some kind of cubic ''crystal structure'' with all equal distances between particles, or something more complex?


Surprisingly, this function doesn't drop straight to zero in the "forbidden zone" (where potential energy is higher than particle energy), instead it drops exponentially (more rapidly the higher the boundary). It's like the wave function leaks into any finite boundary.

What confuses me is implied parity of de Broglie hypothesis which defines strict wavelength and uncertainty principle which is essentially tangentially smooth.

I can't seem to sum up the terms like 'wave' and 'probability cloud' yet.

Due to my awkwardness in maths I stick to practical and thought experiments, like floating gate mosfets and field emission which apparently work well.

Yet nobody explained what voltage has to do with tunneling.

Marko


Back to top
Bjørn
Sat Oct 13 2007, 07:07PM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
5. The molecules will behave more like one single big atom with a combined wavefunction until they are observed again so viewing them as separate objects that might fall apart is in one sense wrong. If you waited long enough the whole wavefunction might tunnel through wall of the box as a single entity.


Due to my awkwardness in maths I stick to practical and thought experiments, like floating gate mosfets and field emission which apparently work well.
The trouble is that mathematical approximations often have several paths to reality. So you will find the same process explained in several completely different ways by different people. Also quantum mechanics breaks completely with common sense and logic so thought experiments are often very confusing.

The advantage is that you keep one foot in reality and are not going on some mathematical joyride that results in something mathematically valid that has no connection with reality.
Back to top
Marko
Sat Oct 13 2007, 07:34PM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
Bjørn Bæverfjord wrote ...

5. The molecules will behave more like one single big atom with a combined wavefunction until they are observed again so viewing them as separate objects that might fall apart is in one sense wrong. If you waited long enough the whole wavefunction might tunnel through wall of the box as a single entity.


Bjorn, are you implying that when box is opened, we would find the solid object unchanged, as it was, but on completely random location?

Or over a given amount of time, and if surroundings of the box are warm, the object would simply spontaneously appear at random location outside of the box? suprised

If that's what you are saying then it's scariest thing I've heard in a while, and opens a lot of new questions.

The other thing I wanted to point out about this, from here: Link2

Whether objects heavier than the Planck mass (about the weight of a large bacterium) have a de Broglie wavelength is theoretically unclear and experimentally unreachable; above the Planck mass a particle's Compton wavelength would be smaller than the Planck length and its own Schwarzschild radius, a scale at which current theories of physics may break down or need to be replaced by more general ones

But what does Compton wavelength mean for macroscopic objects anyway?

It is easy to drive it under Planck length if mass of entire object (and not the particles) is put into equation.

Back to top
Bjørn
Sat Oct 13 2007, 09:15PM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
Bjorn, are you implying that when box is opened, we would find the solid object unchanged, as it was, but on completely random location?
Yes, but the larger the object and the shorter the time, the smaller the uncertainty is. The same applies to the ability to tunnel through walls.

But what does Compton wavelength mean for macroscopic objects anyway?
Since it describes the uncertainty in position it is common to just sum up the mass of all particles in the object and just pretend it is one huge particle. I think it becomes important to only apply it in cases where it makes sense. A molecule will react different than a single particle in some cases.

As an example, if you hit a particle with a high energy photon you might end up with two identical particles and the notion of having a single position breaks down completely. This happens at energies that are a direct function of the compton wavelength. But if you do it to a molecule it starts to break down at energies far below those related to the compton wavelength of the molecule. At low energies it works a lot better.
Back to top
Marko
Sat Oct 13 2007, 11:55PM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
Yes, but the larger the object and the shorter the time, the smaller the uncertainty is. The same applies to the ability to tunnel through walls.

As I said, the yes answer definitely creates lots of new questions.

Having a possibility of an object tunneling out of the experiment and embedding into surroundings or people is definitely bizzare.

First, what really assures that object stays together? Particles tunnel out of elements all the time in nuclear decay, carrying the remaining energy as kinetic.

Why wouldn't the same happen here?

What is specific about entire object tunneling through barriers but specific particles being unable to?

What if we had some kind of (hypothetical) gas with particles arranged in specific shape, but without any bonds between them, and did the experiment, would they still retain the exact shape?

This would mean that all particles are following some kind of pseudorandom sequence by which they tunnel. Odd.

And finally, if all this is true, I would naturally expect the object to always tunnel into lower energy state.
So for example, if the box is subjected to gravity, object would appear under the box, and in no case at top of it.

The second actually seems to violate conservation of energy.

More to come tomorrow;
'Hope to get some more members interested into this..

Marko




Back to top
Bjørn
Sun Oct 14 2007, 01:14AM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
The object and box would react to gravity so they will be in a free fall as long as the experiment lasts so it would not matter much what side of the box it comes out. There is also no reason it should not break conservation of energy locally for a short time as long as the long term sum of the universe stays constant. For example particles are thought to tunnel out of black holes, in one sense needing infinite energy. In that case the energy "borrowed" by the particle is paid back by the black hole reducing its mass.

The particles in a gas would behave independently from eachother unless they are entangeled or become entangeled. In that case they would communicate certain quantum information, but their movements should still be independent.

Here are two interesting pictures if you have not seen them of the electron density around iron atoms on a copper background:
Link2
Link2

The wave nature becomes very clear and the point structure of the electron is not really possible to imagine.
Back to top
Marko
Sun Oct 14 2007, 02:36PM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
The object and box would react to gravity so they will be in a free fall as long as the experiment lasts so it would not matter much what side of the box it comes out.

Box is still, not in free fall; and let's say that tunneling happens in an infinitesimal time. Only the object is affected by the force. I just took gravity as an example, any force is good to create a potential well.

So wouldn't object always tunnel to lower energy state?

If it happened to appear at top of the box in my gravity example it would violate conservation of energy non-locally, having more potential energy than before.
So if my logic is right any higher gravitational potential would be ''forbidden zone'' and any lower would manifest itself additional kinetic energy to the object, just as it had fallen through the distance but not dependent on time..?

BTW, I added a much simpler question regarding this. (7)

Back to top
1 2 3 

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.