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Marko

Fri Oct 05 2007, 09:06PM

Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145

What I would do is show him a giger counter! Show him how much radiation is coming out of you and out of him. Then put it next to a concrete wall and tell him he's getting BAKED! Then tell him how much radiation he gets from standing next to you and that the sun is just spewing out ENORMOUS amounts of alpha, Beta, Gamma and X-ray radiation every second!

Maybe I didn't made the exact point - if you claim something you can very hardly or can't prove, the crowd is going to eat you. The most of crowd is in extreme fear of these things, no matter how silly you might think it is. So I have no choice but to put myself under tinfoil-hatter's skin for this post;

About controversial subjects like this you can't really trust internet at all, not even wikipedia which is usually very accurate with science - I'm just a tinfoil hatter, I barely know what EM radiation is after all, and I'm so afraid of it.

And there are those experiments which show increase in cancer rate for those who use cell phones for more than 10 years.

Then those alleged experiments showing leakage of albumin into rat brain via a permeated blood-brain barrier under effect of microwaves?

And EM hypersensitivity syndrome?

How can you prove it does really have no effect?

As I think, not from tinfoil-hatter view anymore, that's major problem out there.

I don't know what to tell more except post some examples.

''Animals are very sensitive electrochemical complexes that communicate with
their environment through electrical impulses. Ionic currents and electric potential
differences exist through the cellular membranes and corporal ï¬‚uids [6]. The
intrinsic electromagnetic ï¬elds from the biological structures are characterized by
certain speciï¬c frequencies that can be interfered with by the electromagnetic
radiation, through induction and causing modiï¬cation in their biological responses
[3]. Animals exposed to the EMF can suffer a deterioration of health, changes in
behavior [7, 8], and changes in reproductive success [9, 10]''

''Conclusion
We found for all studied phone types an increased risk for brain tumours, mainly acoustic neuroma and malignant brain tumours. OR increased with latency period, especially for astrocytoma grade III-IV. No consistent pattern of an increased risk was found for salivary gland tumours, NHL, or testicular cancer.''

''Radiation, as defined by physics terminology, is "the electromagnetic waves emitted by the atoms and molecules of a radioactive substance as a result of nuclear decay." Radiation causes ionization, which is what occurs when a neutral atom gains or loses electrons. In simpler terms, a microwave oven decays and changes the molecular structure of the food by the process of radiation. Had the manufacturers accurately called them "radiation ovens", it's doubtful they would have ever sold one, but that's exactly what a microwave oven is.''

''Mounting evidence, especially from the recent Swedish study3showing that cell radiation causes nerve damage at very low doses, are beginning to draw our attention to the potentially dangerous electromagnetic radiation in our environment. It is possible to limit the exposure by selecting low emission products such as LCD displays and shielded lighting solutions.''

You guys might think anything, but everyone is going to trust this way more than ramblings of a 16-year old teenager. The thread is not only about EMF detector, it's about all this.

My 21" monitor puts out a lot EM radiation. Enough to light an LED, should I be worried?

Sorry to pick on this, but that is how misconceptions and ultimately these electrosmog detectors arise. Did somebody say that ''roots of pseudoscience grow on misinformation'', deliberate or non deliberate.

What lights the LED is leaking alternating magnetic field from deflection coils, and there's no point of saying it's radiation apart from tens of kilometers from your monitor, where it effectively ceases to exist.

Marko

Bored Chemist

Fri Oct 05 2007, 11:00PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

All known samples of diprotium monoxide produce em radiation.
On a more serious note, the regulations are the "electromagnetic compatibility" regulations. So now you know what the C stands for, and can sleep soundly at night while ignoring this trash.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sat Oct 06 2007, 03:22AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

1. Microwave radiation from a cell phone doesn't have the energy necessary to get passed skin depth.

2. I'm not worried about EMF in the 60Hz-400Hz region. But high energy Microwave yes. Remember that the energy of a wave is FREQUENCY dependant and is also a function of DISTANCE.
If a report were quoted to me about microwave energy cancer relationships, the first relavant information I would demand is at what energy level (Wattage or dBm) and distance. The absorbed energy from a wave is going to drop off as a function proportional to 1/r^2, which is very relavent.

3. A Microwave oven doesn't 'decay' the food by bombardment (but you could split hairs I suppose). The Microwave wave itself is tuned to the frequency which causes a resonance in the water molecules IN the food, causing them to Vibrate, which heats up the water molecules in turn heating the food.
A simple proof of that is Popcorn. Popcorn has water trapped inside the kernal which is excited to steam and causes the kernal to explode, voiding the corn and puffing it up.

Marko... we are bathed in radiation from everywhere and everything, I was just trying to say that worring about it or in a way...becoming an EMF hypochondriac will do nothing but stress you out over something that you cannot change.

You might go so far as to suggest to your instructor that if he's so worried about "radiation" that he light the room by candles and not by flourscent tubes (which by the way bathe you in UV, contain Mercury, and are really nasty in a landfill.... see.. we're so clueless that we have to choose our evils)

Just buck-up, stiff upper lip, and hop on the cancer train like everyone else, there's no goin back now. ;p

Marko

Sat Oct 06 2007, 08:48AM

Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145

Hazmatt;

1. Microwave radiation from a cell phone doesn't have the energy necessary to get passed skin depth.

One of things I've been trying to explain all the time; the brain itself produces like 50W (few W +-) of heat, and even if it absorbs all the energy radiated by the phone effect is insignificant.

Actually, the head will transfer much more energy to the phone in IR than it receives.

We may not think IR which we have in massive amounts all around here is any more or less harmful than microwaves, but then everyone shouts how it's 'unnatural spike in frequency spectrum, can form harmful resonances, etc. At that point I usually don't know what more to say.

2. I'm not worried about EMF in the 60Hz-400Hz region. But high energy Microwave yes. Remember that the energy of a wave is FREQUENCY dependant and is also a function of DISTANCE.
If a report were quoted to me about microwave energy cancer relationships, the first relavant information I would demand is at what energy level (Wattage or dBm) and distance. The absorbed energy from a wave is going to drop off as a function proportional to 1/r^2, which is very relavent.

Sayng you aren't 'worried' about low frequencies usually just makes people think that higher frequencies are more dangerous, and similar. At that point I usually point out that IR, sunlight and UV we have around is orders of magnitude more energetic and that there's nothing known what would make 'lower energy' microwaves different.
People are paranoid just about anything that's artifical or unnatural.

As you said, we're bathed in non-ionizing (and even ionizing) radiation all the time.

3. A Microwave oven doesn't 'decay' the food by bombardment (but you could split hairs I suppose). The Microwave wave itself is tuned to the frequency which causes a resonance in the water molecules IN the food, causing them to Vibrate, which heats up the water molecules in turn heating the food.
A simple proof of that is Popcorn. Popcorn has water trapped inside the kernal which is excited to steam and causes the kernal to explode, voiding the corn and puffing it up.

That are quotes from the articles, I'm quite aware of the BS in them. Although the writer could have used at least half an hour of wikipedia reading before writing it.

Still, sadly, public would believe those far more than me or you.

One thing I would like to clear out; microwave oven does not excite _any kind of resonance_ in water molecules. Heat is just result of dielectric loss, polarization of molecules which can very wellhappen in various other 'lossy' dielectrics like PVC or polyester.

Some small eddy current may also exist but it's usually irrelevant in poor conductors.

Wrongly talking about resonance usually brings thoughts to radiesthesia and similar things

So, I nowhere really found why is frequency of 2450Mhz specifically used in ovens? Few Ghz up or down should make nothing special.

This is from wikipedia:

Microwave heating is sometimes explained as a rotational resonance of water molecules, but this is incorrect: such resonance only occurs in water vapour at much higher frequencies, at about 20 gigahertz.

I would be very pleased if someone could explain this further.

What kind of resonance can appear in pure dielectrics?
And why 2.45Ghz for MO's?

Marko

Coronafix

Sat Oct 06 2007, 12:33PM

Registered Member #160 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 02:07AM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 938

No doubt it's a sham, but microwave phone towers are a problem for
the human body. Just recently here in Melbourne we had a seven people from RMIT
all diagnosed with brain tumors. They all worked on the same floor, directly under the
phone towers on the roof.
Coincidence would be stretching it a bit.

Marko

Sat Oct 06 2007, 12:43PM

Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145

Yep, but with current status of things, I can say nothing about that except that it's coincidence without stretching anything. :p

Bored Chemist

Sat Oct 06 2007, 02:22PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

"No doubt it's a sham, but microwave phone towers are a problem for
the human body. Just recently here in Melbourne we had a seven people from RMIT
all diagnosed with brain tumors. They all worked on the same floor, directly under the
phone towers on the roof.
Coincidence would be stretching it a bit."

What about all the other towers that don't have clusters of tumour victims? It must be a coincidence or some other cause.

Marko

Sat Oct 06 2007, 02:58PM

Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145

Cancer is extremely common illness with huge number of possible causes, to individual persons and groups. It is irrational to instantly set one of least possible causes as final.

Discussions like these, not strangely, usually finish in a dead end. As I think humanity is not yet advanced enough to conduct a kind of research that would completely debunk this matter, there is way too much subjective bias (like various statistics inconsistent with each other) and ultimate lack of concrete evidence with theory in behind.

It all ends as a war of skeptics and tinfoil-hatters.

Rather, can anyone answer my question about microwave ovens? Why 2,45Ghz? And what is the 'molecular resonance' of water vapor at 20Ghz in general?

Bjørn

Sat Oct 06 2007, 03:32PM

Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058

The medical investigation of the RMIT case concluded that there is no evidence to support the notion of radiation causing the tumours. Statistically it is not a very interesting case either, you will find the same thing many places by pure chance. One of the properties of truly random events is that people will recognise clusters in the events, that means that normal people are not able to judge the statistical difference between a real cluster and an imagined one.

The full report is here:

A review of the report is here:

ConKbot of Doom

Sat Oct 06 2007, 03:36PM

Registered Member #509 Joined: Sat Feb 10 2007, 07:02AM
Location:
Posts: 329

My multimeter has one of those in it for finding live wires in the wall

Ive been to a lecture out at Westinghouse in/near Pittsburgh, and was on this very subject. In short what the speaker was trying to say that the effects of an EM field don't become an issue until after heating has become one, and people in general are so indoctrinated otherwise its ridiculous.

He told us a story about a particular hotel in Israel with a sun-deck and a cell phone station on the roof. People on the sundeck constantly complained about headaches from the cell phone tower. The hotel called him to investigate it, and he measured no output from the antennas. He thought the phone company was just trying to pull one over on him, so he called them and had a tech come out, sure enough all the racks inside were empty. They put up the tower and antennas as backup so they could throw equipment in and use the station when needed, or possibly future expansion.

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