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question re: stepping up ignition coils

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ragnar

Fri Oct 05 2007, 06:26AM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

What was the last think you saw that gave off 100kV? How big was it? The 'trade-off' concept is very, very clear here.

People here have got more than 100kV from single ignition coils... it's VERY possible to get more than 100kV (differential) from TWO coils out of phase.

I've designed and built a tesla coil that used less than five metres of wire... mind you, it ran at 14MHz and only made on the order of 10kV.

I'm not saying you can do that. In fact, I'm positive you couldn't, but there is (unless you can give us some more information) CLEARLY a better way to do what you need, without ignition coils.

What do you actually need?

Are you ever really going to mess around with iron powders and making a core? For anything realistic and/or practical, I don't think so.

The people here aren't trying to put you down or insult your experience; we're trying to save YOUR time in pursuing a long avenue of solutions that are NOT going to be satisfactory for you.

Dr. Slack

Fri Oct 05 2007, 07:29AM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

The voltage divider is capacitive (I did wonder why you'd posted that) It works as a 1000:1 (or so) voltage divider one way round, but used in reverse it acts as a 1:1 divider with a big shunt input capacitance and a very low series output capacitance, which is not going to raise the output voltage of anything, even your iggy coil.

But stick with it, the darkest hour is just before the dawn. If you can avoid flaming us for telling you the truth, and we can avoid flaming you for not getting it yet, then there is hope.

Steve Conner

Fri Oct 05 2007, 08:28AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

Well, I noticed you said "hood". Does that imply you're somehow trying to make an improved ignition system for a car?

If so, you should bear in mind that gas either ignites or it doesn't. If it doesn't, your car misfires badly or won't start. If it does ignite, then it's not like a bigger spark somehow ignites more of it and makes the engine give more horsepower. It either burns fully, or not at all. If you don't believe me, well, it's what Sir Harry Ricardo wrote in "The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine".

Ordinary ignition coils are probably pretty much optimal for igniting fuel-air mixture in an engine already. You'd almost think that was what they were designed for, or something.

If you're building some sort of nitro-fuelled dragster and think you need more, then there are very high powered race ignition systems available. Even if you're not, you may want to study these racing ignition systems to see how they are made.

thrival

Fri Oct 05 2007, 10:46AM

Registered Member #1019 Joined: Sat Sept 22 2007, 02:39AM
Location:
Posts: 29

Matt:

Well when you say you built a TC with < 5m of wire, I
AM interested! Your frequency isn't a problem for me
either, but I do need 100kv, give or take 10 or 20 kv.
I'd already made a toroid but only what you guys have
said has kept me from wasting further time with it, so I
AM learning.

Neil:

Capacitive voltage divider, hmmm. I'm not arguing,
but how do you know? Seriously, I've repeatedly
emailed the company to send a data-sheet, but they
seem deaf.

Matt & Steve:

You've asked what I need and/or am trying to do, in
the spirit of helpfulness I'm sure, but requires I
explain past certain presumptions of what you think
you know (Steve), about cars, and don't think I haven't
already done what you've suggested. Suffice to say
there are people who have replaced the air-fuel
mixture with an equivalent amount of electricity the
former releases, allowing them to dispense with same.
Now to come out and openly state it is to invite Dick
Cheney into your hunting party, with a bullseye on the
back of your cap.

Steve Conner

Fri Oct 05 2007, 11:57AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

Replacing fuel/air mixture with an equivalent amount of electricity is a pretty well-known technique:

and it only needs a couple of hundred volts. If you think you have a way of doing it that works better than the above examples, and involves high voltage discharges and reciprocating engines, all I can say is "Yeah Right" and remember that free energy is a banned topic on 4hv. You should have taken it to the investors who funded Tesla Motors.

Dr. Slack

Fri Oct 05 2007, 12:01PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

An improved ignition system? I'd kindof assumed that he wanted an HV light or spark show flickering round his car, but then I'm not a petrol-head, so that wouldn't occur to me. I'm sure that just dumping a larger C at higher volts into the primary would increase the output a little, those things seem pretty over-engineered for withstanding high output voltage, especially if cleaned and dried carefully, and kept clean, maybe by putting under oil.

If the light show, then probably one good way to approach 100s of kV, if DC is OK, is to use an iggy coil, driven CW (continuous wave) at resonance (I found about 6x voltage multiplication at the 8kHz resonance for the one I was using), running into a CW (Cockcroft Walton) using those rather tasty Phillips BY84xx diodes, the 8424 rated at 24kV (30kV peak). Needless to say, the CW should go under oil, and two outputs balanced from ground will double the voltage for any given output impedance.

But it's hard to argue with a low power (to avoid spark generation) CW driven SSTC for modest HV with continuous AC output and low mass (no iron). Even a plain secondary driven as a direct-coupled magnifier from 1kV half bridge will exceed an ignition coil output.

ragnar

Fri Oct 05 2007, 01:27PM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

thrival wrote ...

Matt:

Well when you say you built a TC with < 5m of wire, I
AM interested! Your frequency isn't a problem for me
either, but I do need 100kv, give or take 10 or 20 kv.

Actually, I think I can safely assume the frequency is a problem for you. I shouldn't have mentioned it.

wrote ...

I'd already made a toroid but only what you guys have
said has kept me from wasting further time with it, so I
AM learning.

Great start. Please consider google searching some of the higher-energy ignition coil drivers available, such as the Bastard Ignition Coil Driver From Hell (BICDFH) which could create 120+kV with two coils running from 48V.

wrote ...

Neil:

Capacitive voltage divider, hmmm. I'm not arguing,
but how do you know? Seriously, I've repeatedly
emailed the company to send a data-sheet, but they
seem deaf.

This can of oil is not what you need!

If you can kindly tell us what you DO need, in WORDS, with or without obscure references to free energy, we will be pleased to help.

You have a great number of people here with real practical experience, more than likely some car and motorcycle enthusiasts, and certainly more than a few electrical engineers. Now you have a unique opportunity to pick their brains for your benefit. Please help them help you!

Here's a start for you:
http://old.4hv.org/index.php?board=19;action=display;threadid=3875

I shouldn't need to post links, the "Archives" and "Search" pages are available in the main sidebar of this forum, but I will admit I'm curious as to what you think you're getting at.

thrival

Fri Oct 05 2007, 03:26PM

Registered Member #1019 Joined: Sat Sept 22 2007, 02:39AM
Location:
Posts: 29

Steve:

Thanks for the links but I didn't see any schematics
there. And their's is most certainly NOT the only or
best way of doing it, gear-heads were never the
braniacs, and even millionaires make stupid
decisions that sink companies.

Boy, I can tell I hit a nerve though, raised a few dust-
bunnies. Anyway I already know (seriously) where the
free-energy comes from, I wasn't asking you
personally or specifically. I think TC's were a "banned"
topic here just a few years ago, never mind Tesla
called it his "magnifying transmitter." And please don't
say that Prof. Meyl of Germany sells a mini-TC
demonstration kit that claims 5X power gain.
Surely not how I started the thread.

Matt:

"Actually, I think I can safely assume the frequency is
a problem for you. I shouldn't have mentioned it."

Now you're just being condescending, or making
yourself feel good. A person can never safely assume
anything.

I already said what I needed-- 100kV, DC, 10khz to
20 kHz, in a small space; but I'm not locked into the
frequency parameters, since this is experimental,
anything that works is fine. An oscillator into the mhz
isn't a problem, Newark, Mouser and Digikey sells 'em,
and an adjustable RC relaxation oscillator isn't hard to
build. Frankly I'm just a little lazy and like to keep it
as simple as possible, but still DIY. I hate paying for
other people's products that don't do what I need.

Oh, and sometimes even a degree doesn't mean a
person obtained a full education. I know a few EE's who
makes good money, still missing a few cards in their
deck. I've learned to temper my expectations tho,
learn as much as I can from everyone. If a person
doesn't believe something is possible, how could
they achieve it, much less help someone else?

Joe of Joe-Cell fame's restaurant video. Feel free to
google it. For reasons he explains, you'll understand
(or not) why I choose to do it differently.

Neil:

Of all the er, hmm, comments, yours have been the
most helpful. However I'm not clear how to set up two
iggies to output 100kV DC; at resonance would be
just great, even preferred, if the coils can still perform
continuous duty at high RPM's. I'd like to avoid
messy CW oil-bath add-ons if possible though.
Basically trying to get as much raw high-frequency HV
across the plugs as possible, even RF is fine. The
challenge is using as much off-the-shelf hardware, not
expensive or exotic, and not reinventing the whole
ignition system (which the car companies have made
pretty much inviolate anway); KISS is the rule.

Excuse me if I don't go into further descriptions, the
air here seems to've grown a bit hostile.

Sulaiman

Fri Oct 05 2007, 03:46PM

Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140

I used to design electronic ignition for Lucas - maybe I can contribute?

Ignoring the actual method of producing the high voltage for now;

1) How do you intend to insulate 100 kV? - Wires from HV generator to plugs, plugs internals, etc.?
2) As soon as an arc establishes itself across the plug contacts the voltage will drop to only hundreds of volts,
not even thousands of volts - due to the ionized air/plasma.
3) How many watts of electrical power/ heating are you expecting plugs to handle?

Answer those questions realistically and I'll tell you how to produce the required electrical power.

ragnar

Fri Oct 05 2007, 03:57PM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

You haven't necessarily "hit a nerve" with this group; your responses are just perpetually frustrating to those who are trying to contribute to your thread.

Your post seems to disguise an attack on millionaires, gearheads, and tertiary-educated people. If the concept is so publicly available and altruistic, what's with the meticulous nondisclosure?

thrival wrote ...

I already said what I needed-- 100kV, DC, 10khz to
20 kHz, in a small space; but I'm not locked into the
frequency parameters, since this is experimental,
anything that works is fine.

What the hell does 10kHz to 20kHz 'DC' mean? Rectified but unsmoothed? "RF 'radio frequency' DC?" You're sure raising my dustbunnies.

wrote ...

Thanks for the links but I didn't see any schematics
there.

Steve is deliberately alluding to the fact that electromotive power does not come from overunity or free energy.

wrote ...
I think TC's were a "banned" topic here just a few years ago, never mind Tesla called it his "magnifying transmitter."

TCs a banned topic here years ago? How many years?

wrote ...
Now you're just being condescending, or making
yourself feel good.

Both, actually. I am confident of three things: 1) that you would not be able to replicate my high-frequency coil, 2) that it is of no use to you, 3) that I shouldn't have mentioned it.

wrote ...
A person can never safely assume anything.

Shall we then remove the word from all academic and scientific vocabulary?

wrote ...
An oscillator into the mhz isn't a problem, Newark, Mouser and Digikey sells 'em, and an adjustable RC relaxation oscillator isn't hard to build.

Stop arguing and do it, then. A resonant transformer will give you the power you need.

wrote ...
If a person doesn't believe something is possible, how could they achieve it, much less help someone else?

And how can we help you when you're making it so hard?

wrote ...
Excuse me if I don't go into further descriptions, the air here seems to've grown a bit hostile.

I for one won't excuse you. I've asked explicitly for further descriptions. Why do you specificallyavoid it? I am not being "hostile", I am unambiguous, and my questioning nature may match yours.

Look, many of us have responded honestly to your comments and questions with suggestions or justification why it's easier not to follow a certain path.

We'd all really appreciate it if you could clearly respond to our comments and questions.

As for a "Joe-cell"? This thread just hit its inevitable pseudoscience end.

Merely out of curiosity, I note there are manual linebreaks in your posts -- are you copying them from an email, or saving them in notepad or something?

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