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4hv.org :: Forums :: General Science and Electronics
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High frequency royer oscillator.

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Steve Conner
Fri Aug 31 2007, 08:34AM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
marko wrote ...
Or diode-feedback really just isn't of any merit at higher frequencies...?
That's what I believe, yes.

I also think WaveRider's circuit worked well, and probably gets near to Class-C by just overdriving the gates, as explained by BP's diagram in the thread. Also, if you add a DC link choke and tuning capacitor, it should oscillate by itself just like the ZVS does.
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Marko
Fri Aug 31 2007, 10:44AM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
I also think WaveRider's circuit worked well, and probably gets near to Class-C by just overdriving the gates, as explained by BP's diagram in the thread. Also, if you add a DC link choke and tuning capacitor, it should oscillate by itself just like the ZVS does.

OK, but I can't guarantee good coupling between feedback windings and primary coil.
I don't have quite a feeling how would it work, when third resonator which may not be tuned to same frequency happens to be in game too?

I mean, how could I assure that I'm really sensing mosfet's drain voltage?


There are other problems associated with 'class C' feedback.. with 20V drive the voltage will rise to 8V in 65ns, which is not so bad compared to other standards like UCC's. The problem is, that I can't really keep the voltage so high all the time. I would have to run very fixed power level for that, and still have relatively slow signals.

True solution for this would be some kind of clamping (zeners, diodes in series) which dissipates large amount of power. I have some but only theoretical ideas to minimize this dissipation.

I wondered if I could somehow use a current transformer on the tank to provide feedback (which would be very neat). I have no idea how would this work with DC link choke and all the parallel-resonant mess.


The latest idea I developed is somewhat more similar to waverider's circuit, but somewhat more controllable. (at cost of using diodes. :p)

Diode drop shouldn't actually be too important now, so I could maybe just use a stack of 1N4148's. Auxiliary diodes probably aren't even needed, although they will do nothing when the transformer drives the gates negative.

Schematic:

1188557073 89 FT30472 Gdt
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WaveRider
Sat Sept 01 2007, 09:28AM
WaveRider Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500
In my oscillator, as Steve Conner says, I tried to get class-C type operation (keeping the peak Vgs near the limit, so the transistor losses were minimised without having the extra difficulty of ZVS). The main problem I found was that the usual poly gate mosfets switching transitions made up a significant part of the oscillator period, driving up transistor dissipation. I suspect proper RF metal-gate MOSFETs would work well....but I am shy of risking 50 Euro MOSFETs to the Tesla Coil Gods as I tune things up.... ;)
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Marko
Sat Sept 01 2007, 10:18AM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
Hi Bill

I had some success with the upper circuit (OK, I didn't draw in DC-block capacitors). The transformer drives the gates negative quite symmetrically, but waveform isn't very nice.

I wondered about other ways I could take feedback in this circuit apart from diodes.
How would a current transformer inside the LC behave? (I need to take voltage, not current feedback).

I'l probably still find UCC's to be the best solution after all!


I also noticed you used your royer without primary capacitor, which I found very destructive for mosfet's. I obviously want feedback from primary, not the secondary LC circuit.


Now I wonder, how do things look if I use primary cap, hanging coupling loops for feedback and a high-Q resonator (Tesla secondary), what am I really taking feedback from?

Coupling loops are poorly coupled to both resonators and I would expect some heterodyning mess or just cessation of oscillation. Can you clarify that a bit?

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WaveRider
Sat Sept 01 2007, 10:43AM
WaveRider Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500
Hi Marko,
I wondered about other ways I could take feedback in this circuit apart from diodes.
How would a current transformer inside the LC behave? (I need to take voltage, not current feedback).


You can be creative about the type of feedback that you use as long as the total phase-shift around the loop (including the resonator) is 360 degrees (one of the criteria for oscillation..). Voltage feedback is possible using the coupling loop as I did in my coil....the loop is not conceptually different from a transformer winding.

If you have other components (MOSFET drivers, etc.) in your amplifing loop, these introduce extra phase delays which may need to be tuned out for best results. These phase delays may not be a problem at 150kHz, but at 5MHz and above, they are certainly significant.

I also noticed you used your royer without primary capacitor, which I found very destructive for mosfet's. I obviously want feedback from primary, not the secondary LC circuit.


I relied on the secondary resonance to set the resonant frequency. However, as you noticed, improvement could be gained by adding the capacitor... This is because it may be compensating for phase errors that reduce efficient power transfer.....in short, you are getting a better match to the TC load (the arc). I have not checked this, so I could be blowing hot air out my arse on this one! wink Certainly the shunt cap on the primary allows for phase correction on my Class-E coil..

Now I wonder, how do things look if I use primary cap, hanging coupling loops for feedback and a high-Q resonator (Tesla secondary), what am I really taking feedback from?

Coupling loops are poorly coupled to both resonators and I would expect some heterodyning mess or just cessation of oscillation. Can you clarify that a bit?


You need to "sample" the secondary coil (resonator) field, which should be dominant near the so-called "parallel" resonance (the primary input impedance is at its highest point, like a parallel LCR circuit). These feedback loops should be small (weakly coupled) to the resonator field. Hence, they do not disturb the resonance significantly. Furthermore, if coupling is too high, you can overvolt your amplifier input (or MOSFET gates) as well as have too much coupling to the primary, which messes up the while scheme.. Use just enough coupling to drive the MOSFETS well intoi conduction (or to switch on your driver IC).

Have fun and good luck!!
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Marko
Sat Sept 01 2007, 05:57PM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
I relied on the secondary resonance to set the resonant frequency. However, as you noticed, improvement could be gained by adding the capacitor... This is because it may be compensating for phase errors that reduce efficient power transfer.....in short, you are getting a better match to the TC load (the arc). I have not checked this, so I could be
blowing hot air out my arse on this one! Certainly the shunt cap on the primary allows for phase correction on my Class-E coil..

What I especially meant, energy stored in leakage inductance of primaries has nowhere to go without the cap. It gets dumped into mosfets with each cycle; since coupling between primaries is poor there can't be freewheeling as with some kind of ferrite-transformer based push-pull converter.

(At least that's my theory).

Any way I noticed mosfets to get grossly hot in that mode.

You need to "sample" the secondary coil (resonator) field, which should be dominant near the so-called "parallel" resonance (the primary input impedance is at its highest point, like a parallel LCR circuit). These feedback loops should be small (weakly coupled) to the resonator field. Hence, they do not disturb the resonance significantly.

I meant.. how things look with both primary and secondary LC, and feedback taken by a loop which isn't really well coupled to either?

I would naturally expect it to ''lock'' on highest-Q resonator, or I'm wrong?

Polyprojectitis is eating my time but I'l try to do something with this.

At least I want to be able to demonstratively light some bulbs at several cm of distance.

Marko

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WaveRider
Sat Sept 01 2007, 09:33PM
WaveRider Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500
Marko,
The drain-source capacitance of the MOSFETS that I was using was quite high... Hence VDS punch-through did not seem to be a problem . Even with capacitors across the primary, power will be dumped into the MOSFETS...unless you can switch the transistor at zero voltage, shunt caps can make the situation even worse. This requires precise phasing. Shunt caps can make things better if used with care.

Second question...
I found that a small feedback "tickler loop" weakly coupled to the resonator is enough to cause stable oscillation to occur. If there is no breakout, the system Q can be quite high (depending on coupling to the amplifier or the "external world") and oscillation is easily achieved.

Cheers!

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Marko
Sun Sept 02 2007, 11:47AM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
Hi

The drain-source capacitance of the MOSFETS that I was using was quite high... Hence VDS punch-through did not seem to be a problem . Even with capacitors across the primary, power will be dumped into the MOSFETS...unless you can switch the transistor at zero voltage, shunt caps can make the situation even worse. This requires precise phasing. Shunt caps can make things better if used with care.

I was once using IRFP450's at some 30V and voltage was still going through the roof of like 200V without shunt caps. It was only at about 500kHz. I didn't test this out with 60V mosfets.

Anyway, I agree with you, it probably matters little if mosfet avalanches or dumps the shunt cap into itself while it's not in ZVS.


I found that a small feedback "tickler loop" weakly coupled to the resonator is enough to cause stable oscillation to occur. If there is no breakout, the system Q can be quite high (depending on coupling to the amplifier or the "external world") and oscillation is easily achieved.

That's exactly what I *don't* want.. I want the thing to absolutely remain on primary resonance and in ZVS.


I don't have good clue how does the system with two LC circuits like that behave after all.

What assures your coupling loop will 'like' one LC more than another?

What if resonators are heavily mistuned, just near or in perfect tune?

How does coupling (loop-primary, loop-secondary) affect this?

If I for example have the loop much closer to primary than secondary, obviously it will be much harder for it to 'lock' on secondary resonance?

Remember, I'm wirelessly lighting bulbs, as in first pic, not running TC's yet.

Marko



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WaveRider
Sun Sept 02 2007, 03:23PM
WaveRider Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500
Hi again Marko,

That's exactly what I *don't* want.. I want the thing to absolutely remain on primary resonance and in ZVS.


If you are trying the "tesla wireless power transmission" experiment, this involves...to the best of my knowledge, a set of weakly coupled transmitter and receiver resonant circuits. TThis implies relative high Q transmitter resonator.. ZVS seems to work best in tightly coupled, low-Q situations. You are getting high values for VDS because this type of system is intrinsically hi-Q. It will be difficult (but perhaps not impossible) to get reliable ZVS in this situation.

What assures your coupling loop will 'like' one LC more than another?


Your feedback circuits should not be resonant near the operating frequency. If they are, funny things will no doubt occur. The feedback coil(s) should be as far below their stand-alone (uncoupled) resonance as possible. A small amount of series resistance in this feedback will also help stabilise things by damping out possible destructive high-order resonances.

These wireless transmission schemes assume that the driving (transmitter) coil and the driven (receiver) coil are weakly coupled, so dual-tuned circuit frequency splitting is negligible. The transmitter will always ring at essentiqlly its "uncoupled" resonant frequency.

Of course, if coupling between the driver and driven coils is significant, your oscillator may hop between the two resonances caused by the coupling induced frequency splitting effect depending on the coupling and resonant frequency of the coils.
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Marko
Sun Sept 02 2007, 03:53PM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
o the best of my knowledge, a set of weakly coupled transmitter and receiver resonant circuits. TThis implies relative high Q transmitter resonator.. ZVS seems to work best in tightly coupled, low-Q situations.


Tesla resonator isn't by any mean much different than coil, cap and bulb. (except bulb is paralell, not series load.
Drain voltage also always stays within limits of about 3-4 supply voltages. System is actually quite low Q, there is not much inductance after all in that coil. I wondered how a higher Q resonator would work, and that's what i'm going to find out after gate drive gets fixed! smile


Now related to this, I noticed that drain voltage always stays around value of about 3 times the supply voltage, pretty much unrelated to other things in circuit. Somebody now mentions pi, and 2*sqrt2 supply voltage?

Yet to this day I'm not quite sure why is this so constant. How does one come to pi?
Mosfets are decoupled from supply by DC link inductor so they don't strictly follow the supply voltage. But still?

If I built a halfbridge ZVS converter, how would then mosfets need to be rated? (From CFL lamp appnote, I remember they used about 1.7 supply voltage?)


You are getting high values for VDS because this type of system is intrinsically hi-Q.

No, I don't. This was from another experiment from another life where I used no shunt cap and my understanding of all this was poor. ill So forget it.

Any time in this thread I'm always running 2 resonators, primary and secondary.


Now about feedback:

Your feedback circuits should not be resonant near the operating frequency. If they are, funny things will no doubt occur. The feedback coil(s) should be as far below their stand-alone (uncoupled) resonance as possible.

I didn't really attempt using such feedback, for same reason I'm asking this! But yes, the resonance of feedback and gates can spoil things too if not taken care off.


Of course, if coupling between the driver and driven coils is significant, your oscillator may hop between the two resonances caused by the coupling induced frequency splitting effect depending on the coupling and resonant frequency of the coils.

Yup, that 'hopping' is what I'm scared off. I can't guarantee weak coupling, especially if receiver turns to be a Tesla coil.

The feedback signal would become more and more 'heterodyning' as the coupling increasesand destroy ZVS, right?

That's why I insisted on 'hard' primary feedback.
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