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MONOPOLE Impersonator? HALBACH Array Fabricated (Flux Lines ADDED)

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LAN_403

Mon Feb 26 2007, 10:26PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Andrew:

You and Suli could be right. I don't know. I'm not an authority on magnet theory. Outside observers such as ourselves can only wonder... if the simple magnets arrays could do the desired job, why the Phds in the white coats in the R&D think tanks have selected the Halbach array for use in particle accellerators, the NASA launch assist prototype, mag-lev train development, and other fancy stuff. Everyone from the Department of Energy, Department of Transportation, to NASA (to name a few) have jumped on the Halbach wagon. The question is why? They give us a clue when they say "Previous research teams had rejected permanent magnets for maglev systems because designers believed the magnets would yield too little levitating force relative to their weight. Two developments resolved that problem. In the 1980s, the late Klaus Halbach, a physicist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, invented the Halbach array ..." found here

I've no axe to grind either way about the Halbach, other than I enjoy playing around with them because they do behave rather strangely for someone accustomed to 'regular' magnets. Below are a few photos I made of my homemade Halbach array showing flux lines in pic 1 & 2. With all due respect, the actual flux lines appear to be substancially different from the simulated flux lines you posted. Pic 3 & 4 show the Halbach array's "cancelled" side toward the ferrofluid. Kinda hard to see in the small pic, but the FerroFluid is level. Pic 5 shows the augmented side of the array, with the Ferrofluid very strongly attracted toward it. The transparent plastic tube is serving as a spacer. Later this year I will be contacting NASA with one of my developments because I believe it can help. If you and Suli feel strongly about your data, you might consider also contacting NASA or DOE as it could help all of humanity to have a cheaper way to accomplish these mag-lev goals. Btw, very nice graphics you generated, looks like a cool program. CM

1172528811 277 FT20706 Halbachfluxtopview1

1172528811 277 FT20706 Halbachfluxreduced2

1172528811 277 FT20706 Ferroliquid1reduced

1172528811 277 FT20706 Ferroliquid3reduced

WaveRider

Wed Feb 28 2007, 08:46PM

Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500

CM,
I am not aware that NASA or other agencies are "pouring" money into this. Even if the magnetisation energy of the permanant magnets was good enough for good flux density/weight ratio, rare earth magnets are too expensive in comparison to electromagnets made even with silicon-steel cores. Furthermore high-field rare earth magnets are made from...well..rare materials that costs alot in large quantities... It just doesn't make economic or engineering sense.

Also, other than small linacs, big particle accelerators usually use superconducting magnets..

Halbach arrays do not violate Maxwell's equations in any way. The field obeys div B=0 at all times! It in no way "impersonates" a "one pole" magnet. (Anthropomorphising a physical process is almost a sure sign of pseudoscientific ranting.)

Wed Feb 28 2007, 10:36PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Wave:

I agree, you don't seem to be aware. I've lost interest in repeating the same quotes again and again from recognized authorities. No disrespect (honestly) but for the answers to the things you say you aren't aware of, please carefully re-read the many links I've listed above. It will require about 10 minutes or less and all the info is contained in those links. If the printed word of multiple recognized authorities announcing in unison that they are currently using, or considering using, the Halbach array in several important current and future developments isn't good enough for you, then there is nothing further that I or anyone else can do. I recommend simply moving onto another topic and thread where we can be more productive. Btw, it is clear that you don't own a Halbach since the few people who've taken time to build one that I'm aware of (not so easy to build, maybe that is why so few have done it) agree that it does behave as if it were a one-pole magnet to the human senses. That is not so hard to accept since one side has a very strong field and the other side has a very weak "cancelled' field... see the flux lines in my above post for visual confirmation. Best regards, CM

Mike

Wed Feb 28 2007, 10:44PM

Registered Member #58 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:40AM
Location: Tri-Cities, Washington, US
Posts: 317

CM, you know you wouldnt have people complaining to you about your posts if you didnt head them in big CAPS and keywords trying to hype up your post. Then putting the thing off like its "AMAZING!!!!111111 " I agree it is cool, but it's not something to get all worked up about....

Wed Feb 28 2007, 10:51PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Mike:

Fair enough, I defend your right to consider it a small matter.. but to me and at least a few others, it is a BIG matter. Up to 30%-40% fuel savings IF the launch assist ends up working as hoped... to me that is HUGE if it ends up actually happening. I've been inside NASA, with security clearance including everything but a full body cavity search, and I know those guys get excited at the prospect of a 1% fuel savings. There is no doubt that even a 30% fuel savings would mean a significant improvement in our ability to 'reach' into space. I hope you will equally defend my right, and other's rights, to have a different opinion concerning the level of importance connected to the mag-launch assist and other programs which currently include the use of Halbach arrays

AndrewM

Wed Feb 28 2007, 11:33PM

Registered Member #49 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:05AM
Location: Bigass Pile of Penguins
Posts: 362

I'm ashamed to be posting again here, as each time I do I promise myself that I will just let the thread die... and then you go and say something so wild that my self control buckles.

CM wrote ...

If the printed word of multiple recognized authorities announcing in unison that they are currently using, or considering using, the Halbach array in several important current and future developments isn't good enough for you, then there is nothing further that I or anyone else can do.

Thats exactly the problem. We've established repeatedly, irrefutably, that those articles are hype, based on faulty conlusions and incomplete analysis. You keep posting the same articles, and we keep telling you that no matter who's name is on them, all of us use the same physics and the statements just don't hold water.

CM wrote ...

agree that it does behave as if it were a one-pole magnet to the human senses.

NO!!! "Sticking to stuff" is not the sign of a single magnet pole. That why I told you to get a horseshoe magnet, as it too has two poles on the same side. If you approach the strong-field side of your Halbach array with another bar magnet, you will clearly feel two discrete poles. When you say "human senses" you mean to say "senses of someone poorly acquainted with magnets".

CM wrote ...

I've been inside NASA, with security clearance including everything but a full body cavity search, and I know those guys get excited at the prospect of a 1% fuel savings.

So have many of us:

You're usually safe assuming that the people here know what they're talking about. People who aren't up to the high standards here tend to find a chilly reception and fade away. WaveRider is one of those that I'd take over ANY press release.

Thu Mar 01 2007, 01:20AM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

That free-fall looks pretty fun, I'd like to try it someday. The closest I've been to that is free-falling in a vertical wind tunnel, not quite the same sensation I expect. I didn't imply that I am the only guy on the planet that's been on the inside of NASA (although I am the only guy that escorted Jody Foster from her dressing room to the helicopter scene in CONTACT while at NASA). Back OT, for the record, I do indeed respect 98% of people who make posts here, that is why I'm still here, not just to learn, but also to share some of what I've learned, give and take... but you'll have to forgive me this time. My tendancy is to go with the establish authorities on this particular topic, eventho it might be unpopular. Believe me, I have NO problem going against established authority when I am convinced they are wrong, but this isn't one of those cases. To me, the flux lines differing significantly (see my above pic of flux) from predicted theory (your nicely done colorful graphs) show that the Halbach array has unique or semi-unique characteristics, or at a minimum, projects a magnetic profile different from that of predicted theory. My guess is... between the two of us... I'm probably the only one that has actually held, tested and evaluated a Halbach array in real life. We'd have to assume the engineers, physicists, scientists from many different companies are complete dolts to have somehow overlooked the simplistic view that they could accomplish the mag-lift goals by using standard mags or standard mag array. That line of thought comes dangerously close to a borderline 'conspiracy theory' that all the high level technology guys have somehow conspired together to ignore regular magnet arrays in favor of the more complex Halbach array. Not trying to rub a rash on anyone's derriere, but that doesn't make sense to me. I'm okay with agreeing... to disagree, without impuning your obvious intelligence.

AndrewM

Thu Mar 01 2007, 05:25AM

Registered Member #49 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:05AM
Location: Bigass Pile of Penguins
Posts: 362

CM wrote ...

My tendancy is to go with the establish authorities on this particular topic, eventho it might be unpopular. Believe me, I have NO problem going against established authority when I am convinced they are wrong, but this isn't one of those cases.

I wholehearted support this ideology; when in doubt, or out of your element, trust the established authorities. However, this is far from what you're doing. You've found a single brand name (Inductrak) and multiple spin doctors' press releases, and you've elevated whatever low level technical writer that assembled them to the status of "established authority". This behavior is irresponsible. The fact that you're completely incapable of objectively comparing the slim technical pickings that youve read with the staggeringly large body of evidence against it indicates that you're either not intelligent enough to grasp the concepts, or are a zealot. Frankly I can't be sure which is worse.

CM wrote ...
To me, the flux lines differing significantly (see my above pic of flux) from predicted theory (your nicely done colorful graphs) show that the Halbach array has unique or semi-unique characteristics, or at a minimum, projects a magnetic profile different from that of predicted theory.

You just crossed a line. Its one thing to claim that something is new and different, its another entirely to say that it attacks theory. My very first post in this thread pointed out how fully current theory encompasses the Halbach array. WaveRider gave you an actual equation (oh boy, we're dealing with science now!). The flux lines in my sims are exactly the same as those on your viewing film. Add "learn to use viewing film" to your list of homework, right next to "get a horseshoe magnet".

CM wrote ...
My guess is... between the two of us... I'm probably the only one that has actually held, tested and evaluated a Halbach array in real life.

Fine. I hereby rob you of your monopoly. I realize you'll dismiss what I'm about to say, but I was pretty disappointed. You had made me hope that this thing was far more counterintuitive than I suspected. Unfortunately, it behaved exactly like I thought it would, and it was actually LESS dramatic than I thought it'd be. My Halbach array has two definite poles.

However, I will say that I'm DAMN impressed that you wrestled those big magnets into place. Good lord!

CM wrote ...
That line of thought comes dangerously close to a borderline 'conspiracy theory' that all the high level technology guys have somehow conspired together to ignore regular magnet arrays in favor of the more complex Halbach array.

Its no conspiracy. They simply used actual science to evaluate the array and decided that it wasn't useful.

CM wrote ...
Not trying to rub a rash on anyone's derriere, but that doesn't make sense to me. I'm okay with agreeing... to disagree, without impuning your obvious intelligence.

Its hard to be rude to someone whos so polite. CM please take the extra steps and evaluate your little array critically. Honestly I'd be suprised if you 'came around' at this point, however if you can do so, it would be to your credit.

Thu Mar 01 2007, 01:36PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Can't really say I concur with every step along your line of thinking on this topic, so I think it best we focus our efforts on other topics in other threads rather continue to rehash the same old points. I agree that you are a smart guy that happens to have arrived at a different conclusion than myself...as well as some others in white coats who make their living evaluating this sort of magnetic technology. There is no crime in that. The famous American sports writer Damon Runyon wrote that it was "difference of opinion that made horse racing." He was right. Everybody at the races has an opinion and thatâ€™s part of the attraction of the sport; the fun involved in finding out whose opinion is most accurate, who can pick the winner. So, let's give it two years... if NASA, Department of Energy, and the Department of Transportation, etc have dropped their pursuit of using the Halbach for their various project in favor of the simplier/cheaper magnetic arrays, I'll humbly admit that you were right after all and buy you a beer.

Bjørn

Thu Mar 01 2007, 03:02PM

Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058

This thread falls under general science and claiming that "the flux lines differing significantly from predicted theory" without backing it up without a detailed explanations and scientifically valid experiments is not good enough. Theory in this case has been verified so many times that any claims otherwise requires irrefutable evidence in the form of perfectly executed and detailed experiments.

Science is not a matter of opinion or democratic agreement. It is about using correct procedures to arrive at the correct result. It has nothing to do with horse racing, opinions or NASA.

Andrew has said what needs to be said about the subject so I am closing this thread.

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