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MONOPOLE Impersonator? HALBACH Array Fabricated (Flux Lines ADDED)

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LAN_403

Coronafix

Thu Feb 22 2007, 03:24AM

Registered Member #160 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 02:07AM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 938

Andrew wrote ...

"... a 50-lb. load ... with only one pound of magnet"

Here is a single magnet with the same mass that can lift 250lbs http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DY0X0
[/b]

Hate to point out to you Andrew that it is by no means the same thing.
CM is talking about a Maglev launching system, not a magnetic lift system.
Usually with these NbFeB magnets, the strong flux density is only a few mil or less from the surface of the magnet.
CM, I didn't know about the Halbach array, thanks for sharing.

WaveRider

Fri Feb 23 2007, 09:42PM

Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500

I Hate to say it, but Andrew's numbers make more sense. CM made claims about required energy for launching a vehicle into orbit that were complete horsesh*t and Andrew called him out on it.

Halbach arrays may be interesting, but do not make a magic solution for orbital delivery of payloads.

Sat Feb 24 2007, 12:45AM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Wave:

Please try to keep up, these are not my quotes, they originate from the below recognized sources that I ALREADY posted above, but apparently you didn't bother to read. "Buschmann at the Marshall Center has come up with an informal estimate that accelerating a 120,000-lb. launch vehicle from a maglev track could use an equivalent of as little as $75 worth of electricity, at current, local market rates." Read it here

"A Unique Array - Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, Calif., is building a maglifter using permanent magnets, thus avoiding the use of superconductors, which require cooling at cryogenic temperatures.The Livermore team has developed a maglev design it calls Inductrack, which uses an arrangement of permanent magnets in a pattern called the Halbach array. Klaus Halbach, a retired researcher from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, invented the array for use in a particle accelerator. The array combines magnets to create a periodic field that is alternately vertical and horizontal. The interaction causes the magnetic fields to concentrate on one surface, while canceling it on the opposite." Read it here

Friendly advise, in the future, if you are in a bad mood, boss yelled at you, girlfriend won't cooperate, etc, and you want to vent on someone, it's best to select someone who is actually wrong, otherwise, well, it just looks goofy. If you feel strongly that Andrew's calculation skills are superior to those of recognized authorities in aerospace industry and NASA (who have actual data from prototype tests)... take it up with them. Btw, I answered your question about what an earth battery is, in another section. If you take the time to read it, I bet you will come away knowing what an earth battery is. CM

Steve Conner

Sat Feb 24 2007, 01:05AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

They are only accelerating that 120,000lb vehicle to 400mph with their 75 bucks worth of energy, and there's nothing special about the Halbach array. It has about as much in common with "magnetic monopoles" as an array of Jolly Rancher candies has in common with antimatter.

Andrew, please stop being rude to CM. I agree with the content of your posts, but the tone isn't really worthy of 4hv. Likewise, CM, please stop being rude to WaveRider. That was a hyped-up article written by press officers looking for more funding for their maglev program, and if you read carefully, you will see the 400mph figure. I'm surprised they didn't go on and write about anti-terrorist applications for it.

AndrewM

Sat Feb 24 2007, 02:15AM

Registered Member #49 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:05AM
Location: Bigass Pile of Penguins
Posts: 362

My apologies to CM.

Sat Feb 24 2007, 11:59AM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

I agree on taking things down a notch and all being friendly to one another, I'll go along with it as long as I receive equal treatment. Mentioning new ideas shouldn't be a que to pounce on whoever brings them up. New ideas is how I make my living and I don't enjoy feeling that I have a bulls eye slapped on my back each time I share a new or existing idea. Now that we are all friends, respectfully, I along with NASA, The Department of Energy and others, can't in good conscience agree that the Halbach array is nothing special. The Halbach array is the front runner for the inductive track launch assist prototypes... not some other array.

The U.S. Department of Energy says "Previous research teams had rejected permanent magnets for maglev systems because designers believed the magnets would yield too little levitating force relative to their weight. Two developments resolved that problem. In the 1980s, the late Klaus Halbach, a physicist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, invented the Halbach array to focus accelerator particle beams. In this array, permanent magnets are configured so that the field intensity is concentrated below the array but canceled above it. Post says, "Our use of Klaus's array in Inductrack is a good example of basic research being put to practical use to help meet a national need." ... "The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) is also considering Inductrack technology for launching rockets. NASA studies have shown that if a large rocket could be accelerated up to about Mach 0.8 before its engines are fired, the amount of rocket fuel used could be reduced 30 to 40 percent."

You can read the entire DOE paper here

You'll see I'm not the originator, I'm just the messenger. I referred to it as a mono-pole impersonator... not a true monopole; and it is an impersonator to the extent that one side of the magnet array won't stick to your refridgerator... the other side sticks to it with much force. To a casual observer it appears at first that the Halbach array has only one pole. It is kinda freaky even to some magnetic veterans. However, that is where the impersonation stops. If stock becomes available in the Halback array technology, I for one, will be buying shares. I own two Halbach arrays, and I've never experimented with anything remotely like them before. In my personal experience, they are indeed unique. For those who want to build or purchase a Halbach array, I believe you would agree. You can get the supplies here

Steve Conner

Sat Feb 24 2007, 04:35PM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

CM, I'm sure you are quite aware of 4hv's policies on pseudoscience topics like magnetic monopoles and free energy. You seem to go out of your way to make postings that flirt with the very edge of what is acceptable on our board. And, I'm convinced you do this deliberately to gain attention and cause controversy, rather than because you're interested in scientific research as such.

As long as you keep behaving like this, you will very probably keep having that feeling of a bull's eye on your back.

We have no problem with discussion of the Halbach array, but for goodness' sake please lose the sci-fi spin on it! We agree that it is an interesting and commercially useful bunch of magnets, but it's just a bunch of magnets that obey Maxwell's equations, and you shouldn't claim that it somehow embodies some sort of advancement towards the discovery of magnetic monopoles. Saying that a Halbach array is a step towards a magnetic monopole is like saying that you did antigravity research by standing on your head.

Now, if you could use some kind of metal filings or other magnetic viewing gizmo to show us a picture of the field lines, or even levitate something with your Halbach array, that would be really interesting.

Sat Feb 24 2007, 06:32PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Moderators please donâ€™t delete or edit this post as it is directly pertinent to this thread. Thanks CM

Steve:

With all due respect, you are the one running the "free energy" contest, not me. (Yes, I know it's actually a waste energy contest). Btw, ion collection is not free energy (as others here have attempted to lable it thus making it a dreaded pseudo-science) but rather it is very low cost energy since Mother Nature provides the consumable. Next, I haven't made any of the claims you attribute to me in your last post... please carefully re-read my posts where I indicate multiple times that the Halbach array is NOT a mono-pole. It is apparent that on occasion we all suffer from 'scan-reading' (including myself) instead of comprehensive reading of the many posts here. Again, please go back and carefully re-read my Halbach posts. I don't mind participating in a friendly debate, but I do take exception to being misquoted or misrepresented. I clearly state that others, not me, may consider the Halbach array scary close to being a mono-pole, here is one example of such a quote "Though it seems trivial at first, this (Halbach) magnet array seems frighteningly close to a magnetic monopole...it was enough to freak out the entire Wondermagnet.com staff!" read the entire article at

I go out of my way to state I am not comfortable with that interpretation, ie: meaning I don't agree. I further state that mono-poles remain in the domain of predicted theory

(as I said above too). However, it is an indisputable fact to anyone who actually owns a Halbach array, (do you?) that at 1st glance it does indeed mimic a one-pole magnet. One side sticks to the fridge, the other side doesn't. My guess is that those insisting the Halbach array is nothing special (opposing the Department of Energy and NASAâ€™s stance on the topic) donâ€™t actually own one, although I could be wrong on that point. I invite you to build one and prove it to yourself. However, friendly warning, if you use these mags to build it

be prepared to break a sweat trying to maneuver them into the standard Halbach array positioning, they will fight you at every step. I received several cuts during the process even with the able assistance of my wife. Here's the polarity instructions for building a simple Halbach array and an extended Halbach array

Btw, today's psuedo-science is oftentimes tomorrow's science. History teaches that some of yesterdayâ€™s pseudo-science or pure fantasy, is todayâ€™s hard-core technological reality. No, I am not a crystal watcher, or pyramid freak, or Bermuda triangle/alien enthusiast, but I do believe there is still much left to be discovered in the world of quantum physics and we've just scratched the surface. I also believe that people shouldnâ€™t be penalized for â€˜stretchingâ€™ the technological envelop; otherwise, progress would never happen. In summary, I will not be surprised if the theories and facts of today, that we take great comfort in to explain the universe around us, turn out to be replaced by more correct theories tomorrow. 4hv.org is a great site, Chris and I have had several friendly chats, but I hope monitors don't begin censoring it so heavily (maybe censoring isn't the exact word) that creative thinking someday becomes discouraged for fear of being labeled psuedo-science. CM

Steve Conner

Sat Feb 24 2007, 07:23PM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

You started a thread with "magnetic monopole" in the title. That was bad enough. We don't allow pseudoscience buzzwords because 4hv is spidered by Google, and we don't want to appear in the tin foil hat brigade's Google searches, as it would attract just the wrong kind of members.

Moderators on 4hv have a code of ethics, to avoid being accused of censorship. We don't delete posts unless they are downright offensive or obscene. We prefer to lock threads instead of deleting them, so that future members can stop by and see examples of what not to do if they want a thread to live. It's a kind of "Kill the chicken to train the monkey" ethic.

When we have to edit a post, we are careful not to do anything that could be construed as putting words into the original poster's mouth. You will always see changes marked as *** mod edit *** or such like.

We also expect our members to adhere to the same standards. For instance, editing your own posts retrospectively to make them look better, and make the people you are debating with look unreasonable, would be viewed as pretty dishonest.

Sat Feb 24 2007, 08:00PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Fair enough and understood about the buzz word issue. Surely, your title "FREE ENERGY led lighting contest" is being spidered like crazy for its unfortunate choice of pseudo-science buzz words. I suggest a title mod to "Wasted Energy Led lighting Contest" or anything but "free energy" in the interest of accuracy and avoiding the google spider. CM

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