If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.
Special Thanks To:
Aaron Holmes
Aaron Wheeler
Adam Horden
Alan Scrimgeour
Andre
Andrew Haynes
Anonymous000
asabase
Austin Weil
barney
Barry
Bert Hickman
Bill Kukowski
Blitzorn
Brandon Paradelas
Bruce Bowling
BubeeMike
Byong Park
Cesiumsponge
Chris F.
Chris Hooper
Corey Worthington
Derek Woodroffe
Dalus
Dan Strother
Daniel Davis
Daniel Uhrenholt
datasheetarchive
Dave Billington
Dave Marshall
David F.
Dennis Rogers
drelectrix
Dr. John Gudenas
Dr. Spark
E.TexasTesla
eastvoltresearch
Eirik Taylor
Erik Dyakov
Erlend^SE
Finn Hammer
Firebug24k
GalliumMan
Gary Peterson
George Slade
GhostNull
Gordon Mcknight
Graham Armitage
Grant
GreySoul
Henry H
IamSmooth
In memory of Leo Powning
Jacob Cash
James Howells
James Pawson
Jeff Greenfield
Jeff Thomas
Jesse Frost
Jim Mitchell
jlr134
Joe Mastroianni
John Forcina
John Oberg
John Willcutt
Jon Newcomb
klugesmith
Leslie Wright
Lutz Hoffman
Mads Barnkob
Martin King
Mats Karlsson
Matt Gibson
Matthew Guidry
mbd
Michael D'Angelo
Mikkel
mileswaldron
mister_rf
Neil Foster
Nick de Smith
Nick Soroka
nicklenorp
Nik
Norman Stanley
Patrick Coleman
Paul Brodie
Paul Jordan
Paul Montgomery
Ped
Peter Krogen
Peter Terren
PhilGood
Richard Feldman
Robert Bush
Royce Bailey
Scott Fusare
Scott Newman
smiffy
Stella
Steven Busic
Steve Conner
Steve Jones
Steve Ward
Sulaiman
Thomas Coyle
Thomas A. Wallace
Thomas W
Timo
Torch
Ulf Jonsson
vasil
Vaxian
vladi mazzilli
wastehl
Weston
William Kim
William N.
William Stehl
Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Registered Member #3859
Joined: Sun May 01 2011, 03:47PM
Location:
Posts: 179
For a long time, I knew about ion engines, and "ion lifters" - demonstrations where high voltage (around 100KV ) is used to create air flow, sufficient enough to lift a simple device made out of aluminium foil and copper wire.
Recently I learned that there is a way to turn airflow into electricity without moving rotor blades.
In the system like this: where does the wind apply its energy?
I attach an ionization sprayer on top of a non-conductive tower and spray water, while charging it with an electrical charge. Can I get more energy out of this system then I put in, if the wind carries my charged water mist a certain distance away from the tower base?
I am looking at the math in the article. What are we doing the work against?
Earth surface behaves like a lattice of resistors. Is there an optimal distance from the ground post that my charged water needs to land to generate the most energy?
Eventually, I would like to design my own experiment. However, I am not so sure how it all works yet. How do I create a system where the wind is moving water mist against the electrical field?
Can the nozzle on top of the tower have the same charge as the earth around it? Wouldn't this be required for the wind to work against the electrical forces?
What are the optimal voltages for this system?
I can connect the nozzle to a simple 3KV supply or I can build a multiple-stage voltage multiplier and apply 1 million volts to it. What would be better for this task?
Registered Member #162
Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
The principle seems similar to a Van de Graaff generator ...
Electrical power has two components, voltage and current. Electrical energy is charge (coulombs) x potential (vo9lts)
Current is rate of flow of charge, the wind (or belt in a Van de Graaff generator) transports charge against an electric field - doing work against an electric field, moving charge from a low voltage relative to ground to a high voltage relative to ground, so the charge does not change but the potential does - increasing electrical energy available, or, to look at it another way, at 100% efficiency, the current is the same at the transmitter and the receiver, (the receiver could be ground) but the potential difference is increased, so the electrical power is increased.
Registered Member #3859
Joined: Sun May 01 2011, 03:47PM
Location:
Posts: 179
Sulaiman wrote ...
The principle seems similar to a Van de Graaff generator ...
Electrical power has two components, voltage and current. Electrical energy is charge (coulombs) x potential (vo9lts)
Current is rate of flow of charge, the wind (or belt in a Van de Graaff generator) transports charge against an electric field - doing work against an electric field, moving charge from a low voltage relative to ground to a high voltage relative to ground, so the charge does not change but the potential does - increasing electrical energy available, or, to look at it another way, at 100% efficiency, the current is the same at the transmitter and the receiver, (the receiver could be ground) but the potential difference is increased, so the electrical power is increased.
I get the theoretical idea. However, in EWICON, the charged water particles are blown away by the wind from a mesh of steel pipes, and the ground receives them. The diagram shows us that the load is placed into the ground circuit of the charging system.
What I don't understand is that if there is some kind of mist dispersing mesh at the top of the device and the wind carries the water particles away from this dispersing mesh, then the wind just helps decrease the charge in relationship to the ground, similar to a corona emission on high voltage power lines.
Also, similar charges repel, therefore the water already wants to separate from itself and the wind only helps it. How does wind add energy into the system and carry the charge "upstream" ?
What is the maximum charge that the water mist can carry? What is the optimum voltage for the power supply?
Should (+) be facing the ground or should the (-) be?
Is there a more detailed electronics circuit of a EWICON-like device?
I think that it would make a very interesting backyard science project. However, there is so little information out there. Looking for more replies. Thank you.
Registered Member #162
Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
One way t get a 'feel' for it;
Imagine the electrical power source / ioniser /charging system as a two-terminal device, equivalent to a very high voltage battery.
Look at the diagram for Alvin Marks' patent in the article that you pointed to. If you understand how that works;
just move EARTH from the bottom of the charging system to the 'collector', and you will get the EWICON configuration ... simples ...
Positive or negative ?
You can choose either to suit requirements, but a high positive potential will cause the (positive ions of) metals to 'evaporate' , so slowly weaken the physical transmitter structure. (and, ultimately, pollute the downwind area with the transmitter grid metal)
I beieve that negatively charged ions in the air make me 'feel better' than positive ions.
Registered Member #3859
Joined: Sun May 01 2011, 03:47PM
Location:
Posts: 179
Lightning protection will not be a problem because I want to build and to test this project out in the fall when lightnings are rare in our area.
For the charge to be moved upstream, the Earth and the nozzle have to both have the same charge? What do I do with the opposite charge?
What am I charging the system against if both the nozzle and the receiver have the same charge?
I need a circuit or at least a detailed diagram.
Otherwise, I am straying negative ionic mist onto a positive Earth and this is just a waste of energy. Electrostatic painters work this way and the whole point is to spend electricity and to save paint and solvents.
If the nozzle is charged, the water already wants to repel from the water of the same charge.
Another problem that I see in this system is how to convert the high voltage DC into low voltage DC or 110VAC or some other useful voltage/current. For that I may use a circuit where capacitors are charged in series and discharged in parallel, or sequentially. I am looking for examples of such circuits.
There were devices with rotating disks that converted static electricity to useful energy. Maybe this is not the most modern solution and this may be the most accessible one to me.
In the Van De Graaf generator, the materials of the belt and of the rollers determine whither the sphere on the top accumulates positive or negative charge. The Earth always accumulates the opposite charge. How can this system be built with Earth as the receiver?
Registered Member #57532
Joined: Sun Oct 18 2015, 03:19PM
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 4
Interesting topic. Had any luck building it?
Edit 1: I agree that the main problem here is converting high voltages down to useful ones. One simple solution is flyback transformer with spark gap switching, but is of low efficiency since it completely discharges accumulated charge + spark gap loss. Others seems to include specialized solid state switches as in HVDC converters.
Regarding water mists and similar charge carriers, i think it is better to just the ionizer approach, attach those electrones to air molecules and let the wind carry them away... If you use water droplets, you will just waste extra energy for pumping and add extra losses in system.
Registered Member #46264
Joined: Sun May 11 2014, 05:27PM
Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
Posts: 61
One advantage of using water droplets over air ions is that a much lower drive voltage can be used. The charge separation mechanism for water droplets is induction verses ionization breakdown for air ions.
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.
Vaneless ion wind generator
