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The problem is that B is a function of Space, and current and therefore time and projectile position. I cant break that down to one single line in a heartbeat.
I just ignored the time dependence of B, considering a field variable only in space. So I can also ignore the current. That makes the integral so simple. My point was, that shaping the field in order to optimise performance is futile, if not the fields time dependence is also considered.
When talking about efficiency i never ever would consider to start out on B. I allways acted upon the allready integrated force on the Projectile.
You need B to calculate the force. Possibly FEMM does this for you, but that is implicit there.
Registered Member #2906
Joined: Sun Jun 06 2010, 02:20AM
Location: Dresden, Germany
Posts: 727
Yes yes.. its called (Maxwells?) Stress Tensor. I googled that.. i never got behind it. I am too stupid for that. I find the time dependence extremely important imho. When speeking about efficiency the time dependent current is (nearly) the only thing that causes losses. Eff = [Ekin / (Ekin+P_loss)]. The key is to allow greater loss as the energy transfer rises and to lower the current again when the energy transfer per unit distance falls again. Well.. at least thats how i did it.
Registered Member #58215
Joined: Wed Dec 30 2015, 11:27AM
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 65
DerAlbi wrote ...
Sry Uspring, maybe its just me beeing a human showing his most inherent characteristic: i didnt understand it, so i deny it And honestly i still dont understand it completely (while i am still getting the point). The problem is that B is a function of Space, and current and therefore time and projectile position. I cant break that down to one single line in a heartbeat.
When talking about efficiency i never ever would consider to start out on B. I allways acted upon the allready integrated force on the Projectile. That force is then abstract enough to eliminate enough variables. It just comes down to F=F_0(I_0, x(t))*(I(t)/I_0)^2 with x beeing the projectile position and I0 beeing the constant current with which i determined F_0(x). I then know that P_loss ~ I^2 and then i can calculate, given the right time-function of the current I, the efficiency and with that i can optimize my Current-Waveform, but never B itself. B(x,y,z,x_projectile, I(t)) could be a viable alternative, but to be honest... i can accept the fact that my last layer of wire should only be half the coil length either on the front or back-side of the coil, but i would not think about changing the coil format extensively. Its a manufacturing-boundary i simply wouldnt cross. But thats me, and me alone having that particular restriction. So... dont bother Still having written this i think its more beneficial if you try to shape the F_0(I_0, x) - to a waveform thats easily aproximated by a typical inductor current. Of couse this shapes B too.. but the process is more guided if you rely on F instead of B.
No aluminium is hard to get in small quantities. Currently i only know how my models change if i use AL but nothing more and i could live with the predictions. Dont even start to think about Aluminium (which btw most heatsinks are made out of) heat management. If the dissipated energy in a coil is high enough to raise the temperature noticable then you did it wrong The major risk at this point is a thermal runaway of a hotspot.
Concerning the FOM: maybe there is a missunderstanding. I think i get where you are pointing at. Maybe its my fault not to be more precice..... Ekin*Eff^2 is the FOM to which i optimized my switching for the coils <- and only that! The whole conept however is not really influenced by that except the estimation of maximum current through my swithces and the reduced cap-size i need due to the prioritized Efficiency. The cap-size has direct implications on weight and volume of the gun and is to be considered a fact of life in the moment. The same is with the switching-elements since thats a huge price factor. First and foremost i have to make sure that electrically i can reach my goals (like 100J) and then be happy about that its actually quite small too Its just... when you finally have something working (either in simulation or real life) thats so flexible that you can optimize it at will you need to invent a FOM which repesents your _personal_ goals. It does not mean that until then you have everything built with that FOM in mind. But it might mean that during a redesign you can optimize your gun having the experience in mind which you gained using that FOM. I found that Ekin*Eff^2 leaves _ME_ with reasonable output power while having a quite small cap bank. I also tried to optimize for otehr FOMs but the predictions werent so nice for my design then. In conrast to that it also means that i acutally need more stages because i push less energy per stage - in the end someone else might have different priorities... but for me adding stages.. no problem.
Yes and No. It depends on what you try to optimize. Changing coil geometry to a complicated shape might yield not much (even if it yields something) compared to the gained complexity. Its what i would call "a bad compromise". Increasing complexity like switching from SCR to IGBTs is however a worty step. Why? The gained complexity is justified by the gained properties. You dont need to form the B-Field anymore.. you simply form the current waveform yielding the more/same improvement and end up even more flexible. However this is a completely subjetive thing! So if you have different opinion: totally fine.
I realize that i should not try to stop such research because every gained knowledge is good, however i like to point out that you should expect not much practical use. But who knows. maybe i am completely wrong. That would be awesome!
How you explained efficiency there makes much more sense than what I was thinking overall, but still, efficiency and kinetic energy are directly related to each other. Reach your goals, and then see what you can do to make it more portable? "Portable" is a relative term. A small pistol is portably, but so is a javeling missile launcher
Also, understood about having a platform you can tweak to get what you want out of it. Definitely a must-have for doing design. Making coils a slightly different shape is not too much more difficult, unless I fabricate custom steel caps for it and then it becomes a pain. You are such a fan of IGBTs. I was planning to get an SCR and had some ideas to make the current through it drop to 0 at will, but maybe IGBTs now? or both to test if I can find them for cheap enough.
I'll see if it works functionally... later. I'd not only need a platform to test with, but a way to measure the acceleration of the projectile through the coils, speed, and everything too.
Registered Member #2906
Joined: Sun Jun 06 2010, 02:20AM
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efficiency and kinetic energy are directly related to each other.
Only above the point of saturation.
For pure model validation you dont need a complicated design. So SCR is fine. If you want a gun with performance and presentable data.. then halfbdrige. You dont need to measure acceleration nor the continous speed. One light trap is enough at the end. If your model is good enough, then the end velocity will be close to the predicted one. Having more data is would be nice but its not realistic. All you can do is to measure the force-curve and validate it against the simulation for a constant current by hand. But thats only possible way below saturation.
Yes yes.. its called (Maxwells?) Stress Tensor. I googled that.. i never got behind it.
Luckily you don't need tensors for a good approximation. The force on a magnetic dipole m is
F = m * dB/dx,
assuming m and dB/dx are parallel. m and B are vectors.
The magnetic dipole moment is proportional to B as long as the iron isn't saturated. The proportionality constant depends on ur, the volume of the iron and its shape.
m ~ B
Therefore
F ~ B * dB/dx = 0.5*dB²/dx
That's really only approximating things. I find it useful, though, to have some analytical expressions in order to have guidelines for quantitative simulations or experiments.
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Joined: Thu Dec 10 2009, 02:43AM
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Posts: 600
DerAlbi wrote ...
Soooohh much text agaaaaain
You can concentrate magnetic fields really, really well with the use of a "guide" material, as I learned last night while doing a lot of simulations. [....] The realistic field inside would be 10-12T at peak for what I was simulating
NooooOOOOOoooHHHHhhhh! <- Roasting Understand the problem with saturations: There is simply no material that is a "guide" at those field strengths. Above 2T every material will just be like "not there" and therefor there is no guidance anymore. This is an important switch that has to click in your head. Just repeat saying it "there is no magnetic guidance above 2T" like Bart Simpson.
Actually there is, there's something called, IRC, a "squeezer", which is a lump of copper or aluminium, and when you pulse the field it forms a current mirror which constrains the field. I've never managed to get any major advantage out of it, and it's still fairly lossy compared to iron at low Tesla, but it does exist. I mention it mostly for interest sake. In principle superconducting squeezers could be quite impressive.
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Joined: Wed Dec 30 2015, 11:27AM
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 65
Superconducting squeezer? Like a cone of some superconducting material with a hole at the small end, forcing flux to compress to "escape" and be able to loop back? Fill it with a high-permeability material better than air and that could be cool.
Registered Member #2906
Joined: Sun Jun 06 2010, 02:20AM
Location: Dresden, Germany
Posts: 727
Thx bad big BigBad! It sounds like its based on eddy currents... the opposing field will "squeeze" the source field. As its basically a shorted transformer than you are left with the stray inductance (which might be the most part of the original inductane). Mathmatically speaking a superconductor is a boundary condition where the field lines are parallel to the surface. Still: it lowers the inductance.. and therefore to me it sound like the L/R-timeconstant will suffer.. which brings to mind that you immeadiately threw "superconducting" in the mix. Well yeah^^ might work But not only with superconducting "squeezer" but you also need a superconducting coil.
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