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How do you melt Fe3O4

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Patrick

Mon Oct 14 2013, 05:57PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

your learning a lot, that's good. your paralleling of fets, will have some complications youll need to study, make a few 5 Fet circuits first, so you don't kill 20 or 30 a ta time... look at the SMPS and Unitrode app sheets first.

here:

youll need 2-4 months to read all of the really profound stuff here, and to fully understand it... (at least I did)

Andy

Tue Oct 15 2013, 05:48AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

Thanks Patrick, checked out the site linked to, nice info. Reading one of them it said the core goes to saturation with a square wave that is dc after a couple of cycles, and to use a secondary inductor in parallel to ground to fix that.
This pdf has some answer to multi fets

The muti ZC4069 could be combined into one point then feed individual to the mosfets, that should fix the resistor tolerances and the track delay, and supply a delay voltage level at most to the fet, might add some more outputs from the hex to fix.
The SSteel should be arriving tomorrow and will update this post with pics.
For the bridge(more like a switch now) the gerber file
]gerber.zip[/file] , I think the pcb company might have got pissed off some with the bmp :( :)
I used this program

, they have a free program to view files, but the middle one seem reasonable.

Sheet of Al

The box it will be in, PVA will be poured around the outside to stop the water passing from one block to the next.

Based on past data, the voltage after a second with just the cap connected should be around 0.3-0.5 with a 1F cap, after 10-15 minutes it should reach its full voltage of 0.66-0.87. The testing was done with Nichrome and Al, with 0.87volts top and 0.09volt/second with 1F at 20C.

Andy

Sat Oct 19 2013, 08:39AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

Just posting a spreadsheet of the formulas etc I'm using.
Inductor
Capacitor
Specific heat capacity
Strength decay of mag field
induction furnace number of turns
a couple of fuser data
arc distance
and iron to price data

The spelling sucks, but hey :)

The battery's going to take a week to dry, but should have in the post two switches(10 mosfets each) some 500khz resonate chips, and some hex inverters. to build this circuit

, with some pre punched boards.
Will try to use

instead of copper oxide, should be able to make it cheaply, with the amount of coal KClO3 and iron oxide in the spreadsheet..

Links

Proud Mary

Sat Oct 19 2013, 10:06AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Andy wrote ...

The battery's going to take a week to dry, but should have in the post two switches(10 mosfets each) some 500khz resonate chips, and some hex inverters. to build this circuit

, with some pre punched boards.
Will try to use

instead of copper oxide, should be able to make it cheaply, with the amount of coal KClO3 and iron oxide in the spreadsheet..

I don't really know what you're trying to do with all this, but don't blow yourself up, or get yourself 'detained' by the terrorologists who are never more than a mouse click away.

Andy

Mon Oct 21 2013, 01:41AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

I won't be mixing the stuff up, the below is one idea.Awhile ago there was a law allowing small quantity's for home made rocket motors, below a certain size, don't know weather thats still in effect. I stuffed up the battery, the glue didn't dry, so have made a new design using windows stoppers, its rubber with glue on one side, and will try that with 12volt setup, should have some pics tomorrow.

Andy

Mon Oct 21 2013, 09:19PM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

Built the thing, used this

EDIT

The voltage per cell only worked out to be 0.2v at a ESR of 0.6 for salt/cell(12ohms(20cells) it will make 0.31amp with a max voltage of 3.80volt. On the corrosive chart the voltage is in the white area, not the black, if it switch's the amps should increase, but at 1.2watt, it doesn't look good.
Things that could improve it, would be to raises the temperature to 20C to get 3.8amp, and use iron(3) sulphate which might increase it to 7-14amp

Retested the cell, some cells are reaching 0.47volt(well one),still in the white area, at 20 cells it should reach 9.4volt and 0.78amp = 7.36watt. I think I stuffed up the calcs early with 0.6ohms for the whole battery :( .

The run time should be 2-3months at 3months it should be 15.89kwh(makes it look alittle better :)

If it reach's the 0.6volt(black area) it should reach 12volt 1amp.

Going to connect a voltage divider up to a 47ohm resistor and 12volt ac source and measure the ohms accurately, and see the voltage in 1 second with a 30uF cap connected as load.

Used this cirucit

The voltage is 13.78volt at 220ohm = 0.06amp, I don't think the thing will last 3 months, its hissing quiet loudly, maybe , measured across the resistor was 2.10volt but across the battery 1.80 volt.

Connected a 30uF cap, the voltage stayed at 1.80volt straight away from a short circuit.

Is there a accurate way to read the resistance, if its hissing like this, I would thing the amps would be 1-2amp

It sparks when you short the leads, which is quiet cool :) , its doing a decent job of electrolysis the copper oxide/copper hydroxide mixture, will post a pic when I get my camera

Connected a 30uF cap across with clips, after a couple of test getting 3.63volt average per second(first reading on the multimeter, the second one around 4.15volt
This site

with the values 30uF/13.78volt/220ohms gives the circuit 0.062amps max, after a second 1.57amps for charging current, with a max of 9.87amp, 13.78/3.63 = 3.79 ratio a charge of 413.4uC/3.79 = 100000 ESR ohms(Is this the right way to work it out?)
This site

shows the ohms as 0.109

Bored Chemist

Tue Oct 22 2013, 02:41PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

I'm not sure how stable Al plates in Fe(III) sulphate would be.
Have you seen the reaction between iron and FeCl3?
The sulphate ion isn't as good a complexing agent but once the reaction starts it might not be possible to stop until it destroys the battery.

Andy

Tue Oct 22 2013, 06:05PM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

How quick do you think the reaction would be?, the plates are meant to corrode its how it makes the power, but I don't want it to happen in ten minutes.What would the reaction formula be?If the plan was to make oxygen, and haveing a lot of chlorine made,iron oxide reacts with HCL, would iron oxide react with chlorine, I'm thinking that FeCl3 or 2 would breakdown easier.
Thanks

The battery voltage has dropped and the reading overnight was 3.5volt, I think its because of the trapped oxygen or hydrogen, there alot of foam at the top of the plates. The reading of 3.63volts a second was from the lower voltage of 4.3-4.5volt not the 13.78volt.

Last night using a clamp meter temperature reading at 20.1C it was 4.3volt, in the morning today its 17.6C at 3.48volt. Mixed some more 3Fe2SO4 after ten minutes or so, reading 8.64.
The first test I did was in a ice cream container with a lot of water, the gap in this battery is 1-2mm(20*30cm), which is causing problems with electrolyte

Tested the amps with the clamp meter, keep on flicking the lead to the terminal, showed 0.04amp, which is close to 0.06amp from above

Andy

Wed Oct 23 2013, 12:41AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

Spaced out the plates some more, the voltage for 8 cells is 4.88, settled at 5.26volt(0.65volts cell)

The thing is bubbling away quiet quickly, not sure if it will make it 3 months.

22.5C degrees
4.73volt max
1.78volts after 1 second with 30uF cap
70.6kohms ESR
1.23volt Under test electrolysis

Added some Barium titante, should help when the voltage off the battery increase.
21.6C degrees
4.53volt max
1.36volts after 1 second with 30uF cap
93.3kohms ESR
1.28volt Under test electrolysis

21.1C degrees
4.71volt max
1.57volts after 1 second with 30uF cap
82.2kohms ESR
0.09volt Under test electrolysis

20.6C degrees
4.33volt max
1.39volts after 1 second with 30uF cap
86kohms ESR

Tested after a three days.
18.8C degrees
2.33volt max
0.53volts after 1 second with 30uF cap
129.1kohms ESR

Updated the data for resistance table fomula
0.18x
0.28y
4.71volt
k = 33700
0.000066amps
70.5kohms at 22.5C
13mm spacing

A couple of versions
0.6x
0.6y
0.00047amps

1.2x
1.2y
0.0019am ps

The idea was to charge a capacitor and discharge through some Nickel chrome wire, running with that, with 0.0000030F cap and 1.57/sec = 0.0000073watts that could be extracted. Adding more cells increase the volts per seconds, with 150uF(good for 450volt ac,1000dc), will need 400volt/sec for 2.4watt.

Andy

Sun Oct 27 2013, 06:28AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

The battery has settled down, Its being stable at 2.33volts, and are getting between 0.14-0.73volts/sec from 8 cell battery. I will build the rest over the next couple of days, should have 80 plates, ten battery's in series to give hopefully 7-12 volt/sec after another three days.
Per cell seems to be around 0.28volts have enough for 22.4volts.

Being think over the break to use hydrogen from water electrolysis to convert the iron oxide to pure form instead of carbon monoxide, these battery seem to do it allright, just storing it might be a problem, is there anyway to compress it without make a sonic blast?

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