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4hv.org :: Forums :: High Voltage
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Question about half bridges

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Alex M
Thu Jan 05 2012, 10:36PM Print
Alex M Registered Member #3943 Joined: Sun Jun 12 2011, 05:24PM
Location: The Shire, UK
Posts: 552
When driving a transformer using a half bridge setup like this

 Copy

Is the voltage that the primary coil "see's" only half of the input voltage? As when driving a flyback transformer I have to use a very low number of primary turns (4-6) in order to get a decent output voltage, compared to just using a single MOSFET setup where even as many as 10 primary turns will give a good output voltage.

Is my assumption of the input voltage getting halved in a half-bridge correct?

Thanks.
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Thomas W
Thu Jan 05 2012, 11:06PM
Thomas W Registered Member #3324 Joined: Sun Oct 17 2010, 06:57PM
Location:
Posts: 1276
I am rather sure that * should not * be the case, however i could be mistaken

--Thomas-Williamson--------------------- --------
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Dr. ISOTOP
Thu Jan 05 2012, 11:41PM
Dr. ISOTOP Registered Member #2919 Joined: Fri Jun 11 2010, 06:30PM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 652
Alex1M6 wrote ...

When driving a transformer using a half bridge setup like this

 Copy

Is the voltage that the primary coil "see's" only half of the input voltage? As when driving a flyback transformer I have to use a very low number of primary turns (4-6) in order to get a decent output voltage, compared to just using a single MOSFET setup where even as many as 10 primary turns will give a good output voltage.

Is my assumption of the input voltage getting halved in a half-bridge correct?

Thanks.
Yes. The peak to peak voltage swing across the primary is only your bus voltage instead of twice that like in a fullbridge.
Just halve your primary turns and you're good to go, at least for making sparks.
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Alex M
Thu Jan 05 2012, 11:43PM
Alex M Registered Member #3943 Joined: Sun Jun 12 2011, 05:24PM
Location: The Shire, UK
Posts: 552
Dr. Isotop wrote ...

Alex1M6 wrote ...

When driving a transformer using a half bridge setup like this

 Copy

Is the voltage that the primary coil "see's" only half of the input voltage? As when driving a flyback transformer I have to use a very low number of primary turns (4-6) in order to get a decent output voltage, compared to just using a single MOSFET setup where even as many as 10 primary turns will give a good output voltage.

Is my assumption of the input voltage getting halved in a half-bridge correct?

Thanks.
Yes. The peak to peak voltage swing across the primary is only your bus voltage instead of twice that like in a fullbridge.
Just halve your primary turns and you're good to go, at least for making sparks.

So do you mean that the voltage the primary coil "see's" is only half of the 36v I am inputting?
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Turkey9
Fri Jan 06 2012, 12:18AM
Turkey9 Registered Member #1451 Joined: Wed Apr 23 2008, 03:48AM
Location: Boulder, Co
Posts: 661
The primary will see +supply/2 and -supply/2. So +18 and -18 for a total peak to peak voltage of.... 36!
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Alex M
Fri Jan 06 2012, 12:24AM
Alex M Registered Member #3943 Joined: Sun Jun 12 2011, 05:24PM
Location: The Shire, UK
Posts: 552
Turkey9 wrote ...

The primary will see +supply/2 and -supply/2. So +18 and -18 for a total peak to peak voltage of.... 36!

So what would cause the arcs to be smaller compared to a single MOSFET driver?
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Patrick
Fri Jan 06 2012, 01:14AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Alex1M6 wrote ...

Turkey9 wrote ...

The primary will see +supply/2 and -supply/2. So +18 and -18 for a total peak to peak voltage of.... 36!

So what would cause the arcs to be smaller compared to a single MOSFET driver?
your not really reallizing whats important... for ultra-high-power circuits (above 2-3kVA) you almost exclusivly use a half or full bridge, as it solves some magnetic issues like saturation, and gets you away from reluctance and remenance with single switch drivers. (and you get rid of air gaps to, since energy is usuallly a bad thing.)

the real advantage of Half/full bridge is that you have a single primary, thus saving you window area for secondaries and air cooling. for example with a CTPP you have two primaries, thus much less secondary volume available and your cooling is not as good.

Arcing and sparking powers and distances are merely incidental to the above factors.

Stated differetnly, your moving the loses and complexity out of the transformer, and into the silicon. thus both (the transformer and switches) can be more highly optimized, seperately for each task (power switching and power conversion).
Greater effciency and power are gained at the cost of more numerous, complicated components, and lay-out.


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Alex M
Fri Jan 06 2012, 03:35PM
Alex M Registered Member #3943 Joined: Sun Jun 12 2011, 05:24PM
Location: The Shire, UK
Posts: 552
Patrick wrote ...

Alex1M6 wrote ...

Turkey9 wrote ...

The primary will see +supply/2 and -supply/2. So +18 and -18 for a total peak to peak voltage of.... 36!

So what would cause the arcs to be smaller compared to a single MOSFET driver?
your not really realising whats important... for ultra-high-power circuits (above 2-3kVA) you almost exclusively use a half or full bridge, as it solves some magnetic issues like saturation, and gets you away from reluctance and remenance with single switch drivers. (and you get rid of air gaps to, since energy is usually a bad thing.)

the real advantage of Half/full bridge is that you have a single primary, thus saving you window area for secondaries and air cooling. for example with a CTPP you have two primaries, thus much less secondary volume available and your cooling is not as good.

Arcing and sparking powers and distances are merely incidental to the above factors.

Stated differently, your moving the loses and complexity out of the transformer, and into the silicon. thus both (the transformer and switches) can be more highly optimized, separately for each task (power switching and power conversion).
Greater efficiency and power are gained at the cost of more numerous, complicated components, and lay-out.




Are you are saying that I should remove the air gap spacers in the core? I would get better output by doing that?

The primary coil doesn't seem to get hot at all.

The main reason I am trying to get this setup working best is becuase it is for a plasma speaker. In this setup the audio is much louder than my 555 driver and the MOSFET's take longer to get hot (10 minutes with audio modulation instead of instant cooking).

So I should try removing the plastic core spacers then?

Thanks.
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Patrick
Fri Jan 06 2012, 05:10PM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
No, you asked about half bridges... if your using a flyback for your HV, then you must leave the spacers in, as airgaps and energy storage is essential to how this type of coupled inductor works.
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