Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 39
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
No birthdays today

Next birthdays
07/09 Avi (41)
07/09 Jannick Hagen (15)
07/10 Sparcz (69)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: High Voltage
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

Why Run SLR Drivers At 50%

Move Thread LAN_403
dude_500
Sat Dec 03 2011, 09:17AM Print
dude_500 Registered Member #2288 Joined: Wed Aug 12 2009, 10:42PM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 179
I'm wondering why people like to run SLR drivers at 50% duty cycle at half the resonant frequency. I see that it is good at removing ring-up, but it seems to me that it waste a ton of energy because there is a lot of current that no longer couples to the secondary (awful power factor in the transformer). I attached plots of both this described operational mode, as well as driving it at 99% duty cycle at the frequency of the LC.

The teal line shows inductor current, green shows V1 source current, and red/blue show gate drive. I divided source current by 3 just so that it is visually possible to see both currents without overlap. In actuality, realize source current is scaled by three to make some overlap. (edit: it occurs to me that I divided source by 3 in one picture and inductor current by 3 in the other... and this forum doesn't let me update or change pictures. It should be clear what the graphs show though if you are familiar with the topology)

As can be seen, the source current is entirely in one sign in the 100% duty cycle on f_res drive, which indicates that there isn't waste reactive current going through the transistor bridge. But in the 50% duty cycle drive, 80%+ of the current from the source is reactive, and thus is heating up the bridge through forward voltage drop of IGBT's (or ohmic if using FET's, even worse).

So basically, it seems to me that at 100% on-f_res drive, the entire actual current going through the transistors couples to the output (at least in an ideal simulation), where only a small fraction couples at the 50% duty cycle method and the rest is brought back to the source, but burns up voltage drop doing so.

So why do people do this? Is my analysis flawed in some way, or is there some huge advantage that makes it worth burning up energy in the bridge?
1322903718 2288 FT0 Half

1322903720 2288 FT0 Full
Back to top
Steve Conner
Sat Dec 03 2011, 11:36AM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
If you drove it at its resonant frequency, it wouldn't be a SLR any more, it would be some other resonant converter topology. So the question is really, what are the advantages of the SLR?

Well, because it isn't resonant (maybe it should be called the SLQR?) it's easy to control. Each half cycle of drive dishes out a constant amount of charge to the load, so it has the same easy plant transfer function as any other discontinuous mode converter, and it can't resonate itself to destruction if the control loop fails, or you are so scared of feedback math that you never even implemented a control loop.

And, it is a nice match for IGBTs. They happily carry huge peak currents, and they come packaged with fast diodes. So the large amount of reactive power comes cheap. And the SLR drive scheme guarantees zero current switching without any complex PLL-type electronics. You can use slow cheap IGBTs with a simple driver.

You could design a pure resonant converter to perform better into one constant load. But for general purpose hobbyist-type use, the SLR is easier to tame and get results with in practice. I've seen some successful ones made with pulse frequency or delta modulation, as well as capacitor charging supplies for Tesla coils that just run open loop.

I don't know if it is ever used in industry.
Back to top
dude_500
Sat Dec 03 2011, 06:21PM
dude_500 Registered Member #2288 Joined: Wed Aug 12 2009, 10:42PM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 179
I have my project setup for the most basic feedback (is the output voltage below threshold? If so, go). It works remarkably well with only about 5% ripple max at a few amps output on the test load with 100uF filtering, in both 50% SLR and 100% on f_res operation. The voltage even stays well regulated going from load to no load. So I guess there's no reason to not run it 100% for the added efficiency. The transformer's power factor seems to go up from a measured 67% at 100% duty cycle (although simulation seems to indicate that near perfect should be possible) vs. 53% at 50% SLR. Hopefully that will also work well when I hook it up to my multiplier.

Here is a video of the feedback operating in SLR mode. The output voltage is negative polarity, so lower is higher voltage.


1322936410 2288 FT129665 Driver

1322936410 2288 FT129665 Photo 7
Back to top
Steve Conner
Sat Dec 03 2011, 06:34PM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
OK, well if you're using this kind of on/off control scheme, you ought to find that the resonant converter loses much of its advantage over the SLR at loads below "flat out". When the converter is off, energy regenerates from the tank into the DC bus through the bridge diodes, in the same way that it does with the SLR. This energy uselessly transferred back and forth is what you called "reactive power".

I use that resonant drive with on/off control myself, as a current limiter for DRSSTCs, and have experimented with it a lot. Never tried making a power supply that way, though. Might be something in it! smile I think the ripple could be reduced using noise shaping techniques.

How are you defining power factor for these two systems? If building a DC power supply, a reasonable definition might be something like (Iav*Vav)/(Irms*Vrms) - useful power to the load divided by the "VA rating" required of the high frequency transformer.
Back to top
dude_500
Sat Dec 03 2011, 06:56PM
dude_500 Registered Member #2288 Joined: Wed Aug 12 2009, 10:42PM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 179
Oh, I had not considered the implications of what happens with it goes to an off state. Indeed, you are right that power factor goes down unless it's in the always-on state. Attached a simulation of that at 100% resonance. Indeed, reactive current goes back into the source when it turns off.

The power factor measurements I mentioned in my last post were done at always-on, no pulse regulation.

So it looks like the SLR has a somewhat bad power factor but would be constant over all duty cycles and switching pulse modes, whereas the resonant mode has perfect power factor at always on, but it ranges to really bad over some pulse schemes.

I have been calculating power factor experimentally by having my scope give me <V_trans*I_trans>/<abs(V_trans*I_trans)> where the voltage is measured differentially across the transformer (not including the tank cap, just the primary), and <> is mean. The averaging is done over a small integer number of cycles. Unless I'm mistaken, this is the equivalent to (Iav*Vav)/(Irms*Vrms), correct?
1322938589 2288 FT129665 Uh Oh
Back to top

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.