If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.
Special Thanks To:
Aaron Holmes
Aaron Wheeler
Adam Horden
Alan Scrimgeour
Andre
Andrew Haynes
Anonymous000
asabase
Austin Weil
barney
Barry
Bert Hickman
Bill Kukowski
Blitzorn
Brandon Paradelas
Bruce Bowling
BubeeMike
Byong Park
Cesiumsponge
Chris F.
Chris Hooper
Corey Worthington
Derek Woodroffe
Dalus
Dan Strother
Daniel Davis
Daniel Uhrenholt
datasheetarchive
Dave Billington
Dave Marshall
David F.
Dennis Rogers
drelectrix
Dr. John Gudenas
Dr. Spark
E.TexasTesla
eastvoltresearch
Eirik Taylor
Erik Dyakov
Erlend^SE
Finn Hammer
Firebug24k
GalliumMan
Gary Peterson
George Slade
GhostNull
Gordon Mcknight
Graham Armitage
Grant
GreySoul
Henry H
IamSmooth
In memory of Leo Powning
Jacob Cash
James Howells
James Pawson
Jeff Greenfield
Jeff Thomas
Jesse Frost
Jim Mitchell
jlr134
Joe Mastroianni
John Forcina
John Oberg
John Willcutt
Jon Newcomb
klugesmith
Leslie Wright
Lutz Hoffman
Mads Barnkob
Martin King
Mats Karlsson
Matt Gibson
Matthew Guidry
mbd
Michael D'Angelo
Mikkel
mileswaldron
mister_rf
Neil Foster
Nick de Smith
Nick Soroka
nicklenorp
Nik
Norman Stanley
Patrick Coleman
Paul Brodie
Paul Jordan
Paul Montgomery
Ped
Peter Krogen
Peter Terren
PhilGood
Richard Feldman
Robert Bush
Royce Bailey
Scott Fusare
Scott Newman
smiffy
Stella
Steven Busic
Steve Conner
Steve Jones
Steve Ward
Sulaiman
Thomas Coyle
Thomas A. Wallace
Thomas W
Timo
Torch
Ulf Jonsson
vasil
Vaxian
vladi mazzilli
wastehl
Weston
William Kim
William N.
William Stehl
Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
A lifter has a sharp wire and a blunt one, the sharp one ionises the air, which is attracted to the blunt electrode. If it didn't neutralise there wouldn't be any thrust. I think maybe Scott is confusing this with ion propulsion.
Registered Member #531
Joined: Sat Feb 17 2007, 10:51AM
Location: Burlington, Vermont
Posts: 125
Perhaps I am to an extent. I'll review and recant as needed.
EDIT:
And recant I shall. Sorry Patrick, I was not remembering the lifter correctly. Assuming all the ions are collected you are correct. The thin air / glow discharge problem will still be there though.
Alexander - It's unclear to me how neutralization is responsible for the thrust. The second electrode would seem to me to provide a preferred direction to the ion drift, yielding net thrust, and control the buildup of a deleterious space charge. Maybe I am still confused? (not an unusual occurrence)
It's my understanding that any charge that escapes the blunt electrode creates an equal and opposite impulse on it's journey away from the lifter.
I think you may also have a point about charge buildup on the craft, if this happens it will pull earthwards by electrostatics. Not sure of the magnetude of this effect. Additional lifter segments operating on reverse polarity may help.
This is such a cool project but the numbers I'm getting from web searches look horrendous, 90W lifts 2 ounces. Would it be cheating to make the craft neutrally buoyant first with a helium cell?
Registered Member #531
Joined: Sat Feb 17 2007, 10:51AM
Location: Burlington, Vermont
Posts: 125
My understanding is that the thrust is due to ionized air molecules colliding with neutrals and imparting momentum to said neutrals as the ionized fellow drifts in the field toward the blunt electrode. The purpose of the blunt electrode appears to be field shaping for directing of the net drift. From a thrust generation standpoint I don't see that it makes any difference as to whether that ionized molecule is scavenged by the blunt electrode or if it continues off to infinity as far as the system is concerned.
Of course from the standpoint of Patrick's self contained system, the blunt electrode needs to collect the majority of the carriers else things will eventually stop working.
You are right about the efficiencies, absolutely abysmal. I would say Patrick has his work cut out for him.
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
scott fusare wrote ...
My understanding is that the thrust is due to ionized air molecules colliding with neutrals and imparting momentum to said neutrals as the ionized fellow drifts in the field toward the blunt electrode. The purpose of the blunt electrode appears to be field shaping for directing of the net drift. From a thrust generation standpoint I don't see that it makes any difference as to whether that ionized molecule is scavenged by the blunt electrode or if it continues off to infinity as far as the system is concerned.
Of course from the standpoint of Patrick's self contained system, the blunt electrode needs to collect the majority of the carriers else things will eventually stop working.
You are right about the efficiencies, absolutely abysmal. I would say Patrick has his work cut out for him.
the purpose of the sharp electrode is to glow and generate ions through homo-nuclear clevage, at as low of a voltage as possible. the purpose of the lower rounded electrode is prevent the generation of counter current which would cancel the upper electrodes contribution.
Alexander wrote ...
It's my understanding that any charge that escapes the blunt electrode creates an equal and opposite impulse on it's journey away from the lifter.
I think you may also have a point about charge buildup on the craft, if this happens it will pull earthwards by electrostatics. Not sure of the magnetude of this effect. Additional lifter segments operating on reverse polarity may help.
This is such a cool project but the numbers I'm getting from web searches look horrendous, 90W lifts 2 ounces. Would it be cheating to make the craft neutrally buoyant first with a helium cell?
As for your efficiency points your absolutely right, the energy efficiency is apalling , but ive got a trick hidden up my sleeve, if im right, IF im right i can make these devices small enough to replace conventional jet engines, but more energy efficent per unit of J/kg of chemical propellent/ energy conversion source.
i have some ideas that need to be demonstrated/validated via my HV oscilloscope probe.... and aerodynamic instruments... hence the 1 year spent building and figuring out the HV probe, and the past 16 years ive been doing the math and physics on the DeSeversky idea.
Registered Member #1938
Joined: Sun Jan 25 2009, 12:44PM
Location: Romania
Posts: 701
Patrick wrote ...
As for your efficiency points your absolutely right, the energy efficiency is apalling , but ive got a trick hidden up my sleeve, if im right, IF im right i can make these devices small enough to replace conventional jet engines, but more energy efficent per unit of J/kg of chemical propellent/ energy conversion source.
Would be nice to see this working. As we're all skeptical about this idea, I can only encourage you to build the device and prove it is working. Good luck !
Registered Member #531
Joined: Sat Feb 17 2007, 10:51AM
Location: Burlington, Vermont
Posts: 125
Patrick wrote ...
the purpose of the sharp electrode is to glow and generate ions through homo-nuclear clevage, at as low of a voltage as possible. the purpose of the lower rounded electrode is prevent the generation of counter current which would cancel the upper electrodes contribution.
"Homo-nuclear cleavage"? You are referring to dissociation of the diatomic gasses? Electron attachment processes are dominant, lots and lots of info out there on atmospheric ions. Of course, having worked on the math and physics for 16 years, you should already have this worked out
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.
DeSeversky Lifter, Made With Carbon Fiber.
