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Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
The more I think about the whole thing, the more suspicious I'm getting. If I was witnessing one of his demonstrations, I would've asked him to do some things that, as far as I know, none of the actual witnesses asked. Maybe they're too polite, or really not competent enough to be credible witnesses? Maybe that Levi guy is in on it?
I can see how the fraud could be intended to work: Put on phony demonstrations with selected witnesses (who either don't know enough about physics or who trust you and won't make embarrassing demands); then string everybody along while you find all kinds of reasons to delay actually producing hardware, all-the-while sucking up the investors cash, paying yourself a big salary, and then, when finally cornered, try to make it plausibly look like "incompetence" with regard to measuring the power output...the "incompetence" defense.
Proud Mary wrote ...
Patrick wrote ...
Im waiting for October and 1MW, and for magic excuses.
Steve Krivit's dry observation of the empty rooms, and the reposession of the coffee machine says it all.
I think sometimes people are apt to believe and hope too much, so that their powers of disbelief become suspended.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
jpsmith123 wrote ...
The more I think about the whole thing, the more suspicious I'm getting. If I was witnessing one of his demonstrations, I would've asked him to do some things that, as far as I know, none of the actual witnesses asked. Maybe they're too polite, or really not competent enough to be credible witnesses? Maybe that Levi guy is in on it?
I can see how the fraud could be intended to work: Put on phony demonstrations with selected witnesses (who either don't know enough about physics or who trust you and won't make embarrassing demands); then string everybody along while you find all kinds of reasons to delay actually producing hardware, all-the-while sucking up the investors cash, paying yourself a big salary, and then, when finally cornered, try to make it plausibly look like "incompetence" with regard to measuring the power output...the "incompetence" defense.
Someone setting out to plan an elaborate pre-meditated fraud involving a number of principals would be most unlikely to choose to build their web of deceit around something so fanciful and implausible as a 'free energy' machine. Fraud thrives on plausibility and the appearance of normalcy. Rossi would not be the first fantasist whose unrealistic hopes and need for self-aggrandizement lead him from self-deception into the deception of others when the grand plan fails and reality breaks in to collect the unpaid bills.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
PM, do you believe that the nickel is actually turning into copper and iron?
Even if that were the case, if his device did become as popular as he hopes, we'd soon run out of nickel. There is already a worldwide shortage of it.
While everything becomes iron in the end (heavier elements undergo fission, and lighter elements undergo fusion. The amount of iron present indicates the age, on a stellar scale), This is the part I find hardest to believe. No mention has been made of how this particular claim was verified other than that 'a sample of nickel powder that had been in one of his devices was tested and was found to comprise 10 mg of copper and some iron (I forget the exact figure).
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Ash Small wrote ...
PM, do you believe that the nickel is actually turning into copper and iron?
Even if that were the case, if his device did become as popular as he hopes, we'd soon run out of nickel. There is already a worldwide shortage of it.
While everything becomes iron in the end (heavier elements undergo fission, and lighter elements undergo fusion. The amount of iron present indicates the age, on a stellar scale), This is the part I find hardest to believe. No mention has been made of how this particular claim was verified other than that 'a sample of nickel powder that had been in one of his devices was tested and was found to comprise 10 mg of copper and some iron (I forget the exact figure).
Rossi's patent application mentions the production of copper:
as does this paper, in which Rossi seems not to have been involved, though his chum Prof Focardi was: Surface Analysis of hydrogen loaded nickel alloys E. Campari*, S. Focardi*, V. Gabbani**, V. Montalbano**, F. Piantelli**, S. Veronesi+**
which be here:
As for what is actually going on, so many LENR affirmative papers have been produced by so many academics since Flieschmann & Pons that I would want to ask not if fraud and error had ever occurred, but if fraud and error is sufficient to account for every single one of them. LENR presentations have been accepted at the American Chemical Society AGM in recent years, and even the US Office of Naval Research has repeatedly funded LENR research, so perhaps genuinely new but very small anomalies have indeed been observed in some cases.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
As I said in my first post on this subject, I'm not completely sceptical about LENR.
I've read the second link you posted before. This appears to 'back up' Rossi's claims, although without a catalyst.
There seem to be a few points in Rossi's patent that don't add up, eg nickel 62 + hydrogen > copper 62 + 10 MeV electron.
(maybe that's not exactly what it says, but that paragraph doesn't seem to make complete sense)
Something else that makes my skeptical about Rossi's claims is that, while stainless steel is used extensively in the nuclear industry, and in the laboratory for experiments involving hydrogen and it's isotopes, deuterium and tritium, proton bombardment, etc. results in hydrogen embrittlement, not conversion of the 10% or so nickel content into copper or other elements.
While is is possible to turn nickel into copper (and, indeed, lead into gold) in the laboratory, the energy required is immense, although, where successful, more energy may be liberated, in the form of radiation.
Do you know of anyone else reproducing the results described in the second link you provided? (the one with the 9cm nickel bar)
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Ash Small wrote ...
As I said in my first post on this subject, I'm not completely sceptical about LENR.
I've read the second link you posted before. This appears to 'back up' Rossi's claims, although without a catalyst.
There seem to be a few points in Rossi's patent that don't add up, eg nickel 62 + hydrogen > copper 62 + 10 MeV electron.
(maybe that's not exactly what it says, but that paragraph doesn't seem to make complete sense)
Something else that makes my skeptical about Rossi's claims is that, while stainless steel is used extensively in the nuclear industry, and in the laboratory for experiments involving hydrogen and it's isotopes, deuterium and tritium, proton bombardment, etc. results in hydrogen embrittlement, not conversion of the 10% or so nickel content into copper or other elements.
While is is possible to turn nickel into copper (and, indeed, lead into gold) in the laboratory, the energy required is immense, although, where successful, more energy may be liberated, in the form of radiation.
Do you know of anyone else reproducing the results described in the second link you provided? (the one with the 9cm nickel bar)
Rossi communicates with the world through The Journal of Nuclear Physics(sic!) which sounds as though it must be a pukka peer-reviewed journal, but is a sort of compendium of pro-Rossi advertorials. It is no older than the start of Rossi's marketing campaign.
The following explanation - which I don't understand - is offered for the conversion of Ni into Cu.
How can 30% of nickel in Rossi’s reactor be transmuted into copper?
This 30% claim could be verified by quantitative inorganic analysis so simple as to be found in basic school books like Vogel's Textbook of Quantitative Inorganic Analysis, which many will remember from 'A' Level chemistry.
What gets me most about LENR is its very frequent dependence on Track Etch Detectors (TEDs). No cloud or bubble or ion chamber, no GM or proportional tube, silicon drift detector, diamond detector, GEM or microstrip gas detector, scintillator, etc etc etc ever seems to record very much around LENR experiments. Only yer actual boil-in-a-bag TEDs. There is nothing controversial about TEDs themselves - they are widely used in radon detectors, cosmic ray detectors, and what have you (I've even had a go at KOH etching myself, with microscope slides coated with model aeroplane dope) but they cannot speak to us in the time domain - no counts per second, no quantity versus time, and so on - the very data that appraisal of reported LENR phenomena most badly needs.
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"Energy Catalyzer" - First Report of Interviews With E-Cat Trio
