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Registered Member #3610
Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506
Sounds a lot like the cold fusion fiasco of ~15 years ago.
The first thing that comes to my mind, is what is being consumed to produce the energy? I have doubts that there is anything nuclear going on here, rather it may just be a simple chemical reaction. Plenty of those are exothermic, but harvesting the chemicals to react is no different than harvesting any other fuel to burn. Any time there is a "secret" ingredient involved it sets off my BS detector. No shortage of free energy bunk out there fishing for suckers.. er I mean investors.
Registered Member #3567
Joined: Mon Jan 03 2011, 10:49PM
Location: USA, 1960s
Posts: 260
As I've said before
POPPYCOCK
However, I don't think that cold fusion has been laid to rest. Untill I've seen a full report that FULLY explains its clamed affects, I don't think it has been laid to rest.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
All sorts of small but interesting anomalies have been reported in the LENR field over the last twenty years, some of them involving electrolytic hydrogen or deuterium loading of metals such as palladium, nickel, and titanium, as with this 'energy catalyzer.'
The study of these anomalies, which often involves the construction of special equipment to detect minute effects, has gone horribly wrong in the past where individuals have sought to exploit these possible discoveries by making unwarranted, extravagant claims for them, bringing the whole field into disrepute.
The announcement that "The inventor Andrea Rossi is planning an installation of 300 energy catalyzers at a total of one megawatt in Greece in October 2011" seems to me to be of this unwelcome type.
Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
As I understand it, this guy's claiming 300 watts in and 3 kw out, or something like that; whereas IIRC, the cold fusioneers were generally working with what appeared to be small energy excesses...small enough that their experimental techniques were called into question. With an order of magnitude difference output vs. input, this part of the claims should be an easily settled matter.
As far as the chemical reaction hypothesis, well, according to a link on that page:
James wrote ...
Sounds a lot like the cold fusion fiasco of ~15 years ago.
The first thing that comes to my mind, is what is being consumed to produce the energy? I have doubts that there is anything nuclear going on here, rather it may just be a simple chemical reaction. Plenty of those are exothermic, but harvesting the chemicals to react is no different than harvesting any other fuel to burn. Any time there is a "secret" ingredient involved it sets off my BS detector. No shortage of free energy bunk out there fishing for suckers.. er I mean investors.
Registered Member #3610
Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506
"run by the newly formed Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies"
This sounds very suspiciously like somebody fishing for investors. It's not about claiming a title, it can be about obtaining millions of dollars. Create a company, come up with some bogus idea and milk it for all its worth. Happens all the time.
I'm still highly suspicious of the secret ingredient. If this was a viable product, the first person to buy one would be able to take it apart and find out what this ingredient is, so refusing to disclose it does nothing to protect the idea. If it was this close to market, there would surely be a patent preventing others from copying the design and selling it. If this was a true scientific discovery, it would be documented and peer reviewed, well understood, with no secret ingredients.
Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
Well it's either a fraud or our world will soon be changing in a dramatic way.
If it's a fraud, it must either be a very skillfully done fraud, or the people witnessing the tests are in on it, too.
Personally, I'm very skeptical, but for the sake of argument, let's say you were the inventor, the device really works, the "secret ingredient" was something a competent physicist or chemist could identify (and procure), and the device could be built by almost any mechanically inclined person (as it doesn't seem very complicated).
How would you protect your intellectual property in this case? If you divulge all the details, patent or no patent, everyone will be building their own units anyway, just like people on this forum build their own electrical stuff right now.
So I don't think the "secret ingredient" argument can be used against the inventor. He may be holding out to get some big company to sign a contract before he divulges any details.
Registered Member #3610
Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506
Well I'm not gonna fully discount it, it's possible something revolutionary is going on here, but I've seen this sort of thing play out too many times not to be skeptical.
My point is that if the secret ingredient is something easily procured, what will stop someone from duplicating the device within days of it being sold commercially? What difference does it make if somebody duplicates it now, or duplicates it in a few months when the inventor claims to be installing them? As long as he has documented it and can demonstrate that he came up with it first, it ought not to make any difference.
If it's fraud, few people would have to be in on it. I used to love watching magicians when I was a kid, actually I still do, Illusionists as they are now called. Everyone knows what they do is not real magic, but some of them provide a very good show and make it difficult for even a skilled observer in a large live audience to figure out their tricks.
This whole demonstration sounds far too much like the magician having a volunteer from the audience come up and swear that there is nothing in the box.
... not Russel! Registered Member #1
Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
If it's genuine, he should be willing to submit to a thorough and independent test of the invention. In such a setup, the inventor would only provide the core of his device. The rest of the device, as well all the instrumentation and input materials, would be provided by an independent third party with no potential conflicting interests in the outcome. A protocol would be decided in advance for measuring the input and output energy of the device. Otherwise, there's just too much potential for trickery.
James is almost certainly correct here. This is one of the oldest scams around: pretend to have a great new source of free/cheap energy, throw up a few vague videos or publish a few papers in disreputable journals, then wait for that sweet venture capital to come rolling in. A scam like this can be strung out for years; Steorn is a good example.
Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
wrote ...
My point is that if the secret ingredient is something easily procured, what will stop someone from duplicating the device within days of it being sold commercially? What difference does it make if somebody duplicates it now, or duplicates it in a few months when the inventor claims to be installing them? As long as he has documented it and can demonstrate that he came up with it first, it ought not to make any difference.
But if you were the inventor, what would you do? With limited resources, you'd probably try to license it to some big company to get some money out of it, first, no? And then after getting some money and with a licensing agreement in place, then get a patent and let the corporate legal staff of the licensee worry about any infringement issues.
Lots of people would be duplicating it for their own use, but there'd still be a big commercial market for people who wouldn't or couldn't make their own, and that's where the licensee would make money.
wrote ...
If it's fraud, few people would have to be in on it. I used to love watching magicians when I was a kid, actually I still do, Illusionists as they are now called. Everyone knows what they do is not real magic, but some of them provide a very good show and make it difficult for even a skilled observer in a large live audience to figure out their tricks.
This whole demonstration sounds far too much like the magician having a volunteer from the audience come up and swear that there is nothing in the box.
Well if the quantity and temperature of input water is measured, vs. the quantity and temperature of the output water, and the time is recorded, it's not obvious to me how you would go about convincingly faking that under the circumstances...especially given the large output power being claimed. And I would hope that no big company would give this guy any money until their own trusted people participate in thorough tests.
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Anybody following this "energy catalyzer" invention thing?
