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dmg

Sun Nov 28 2010, 03:50AM

Registered Member #2628 Joined: Fri Jan 15 2010, 12:23AM
Location:
Posts: 627

I found some information on this but none seam to answer my qeustion, but is making a working prototype required to file a patent?

Chris Russell

Sun Nov 28 2010, 05:23AM

... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052

Not since 1880 in the US. That's how all those free energy machines manage to get patented. Not sure if Canada's requirements are different.

IntraWinding

Sun Nov 28 2010, 11:01AM

Registered Member #2261 Joined: Mon Aug 03 2009, 01:19AM
Location: London, UK
Posts: 581

As I remember, perpetual motion/free energy 'inventions' have special patenting requirements in the UK - you have to show it working to get one these days.

Conundrum

Sun Nov 28 2010, 02:26PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4061

depends on what it is, some types only need you to show that specific inventive step working, not the whole device.
this is how superconductors get patented.

what happens a lot of the time is that companies "ringfence" their patents in order to prevent competitors patenting devices which work along similar lines (example being Nichia with the discovery of p type GaN they patented the MOCVD process itself as well as several different methods of building a similar device)

The only problem is for us "little guys" is that even if we discover something patentable the costs of defending it in court in the event of an infringement are so high that running out of money becomes inevitable, better to agree a licensing compromise as Dyson did with Hoover.

Then you can run into the nasty multi-headed beast known as "national security" which can in the UK and elsewhere be used to not only stop your patent in its tracks but prevent you even working on "your" invention or talking or otherwise publishing anything to do with it.
Not so much as a penny in compensation either, which has caused endless hardship and discouragement to inventors in the UK.
So much for a "free and open" country, when the Government still won't change their policies on this.

Interestingly, devices like the Reprap are being closely watched by the "Powers-That-Be" due to the issues of copying hardware potentially making the current MPAA versus Joe Public battle look minor in comparison. I would speculate that technology already exists that could enable them to print their own PCBs and motors with only a minor modification but it is being kept quiet.

Google "ice etching lithography".. could allow anyone with a well equipped lab to make semiconductors up to 1990's levels of miniaturisation but with almost no hazardous chemicals needed.

-A
#include "$0.02.h"

Dr. Slack

Sun Nov 28 2010, 02:57PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

All you need to file a patent is a documented idea that you can argue is novel over anything that has gone before.

It doesn't need to be useful, though that helps
It doesn't need to be novel, only that you can argue that it is (I've seen some really derivative stuff get granted)
It doesn't need to work, you only need to convince people that it could

And money, time, patience, a thick skin

An important part of the process is protecting every way of performing the idea, a patent with a loophole is not worth the paper it's written on.

I do a fair bit of patent work for the company I work for. We frequently patent stuff "off drawing" for speed, and once in a while, when we get round to building it, we find that it doesn't actually work, or there's a better way of doing it.

I'd be happy to sign a NDA if you want to run the idea past me, my curiosity being satisified will be sufficient recompense for any advice I give.

dmg

Sun Nov 28 2010, 05:01PM

Registered Member #2628 Joined: Fri Jan 15 2010, 12:23AM
Location:
Posts: 627

Thanks for your help everyone,

I dont really have an idea for a patent yet, but if anything does come up and is worth doing, is weather or not a prototype is needed. In general, Id rather myself have a working prototype and irrefutable proof on anything before opening my mouth about it, else Ill promtly get laughed at, as we usually do for those free energy types we see so often

Main reason I started this thread is that I was curious on just some basics that are required to file a patent, as you guys already explained quite thoroughly.

Thanks again!

Dr. Slack

Sun Nov 28 2010, 09:45PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Patents get used in several ways.

It's a legal means to permit you to sue to stop somebody turning a profit from putting your idea into practice without your permission. But if you don't have the financial means, or the stomach, to sue the big corporation who's ripping off your idea, you might as well not bother with the cost and paperwork of a patent. You don't have to be Intel or Kodak to do this, but it helps.

But there is a lower level use. If you want to sell an idea to a company, they will almost certainly want to see a patent application in place before they let you through the door to
a) show that you, and a few officals, are convinced that the idea is novel
b) show that you have put a serious amount of money and time into the idea already
c) protect them from potential accusations of ripping you off

Many people protect their ideas simply by keeping them secret. Don't forget that a patent is deatiled enough to allow somebody else to execute your idea, it is a publication of your idea to the world. Often, by the time the rip-off merchants have realised what you are doing and reverse engineered it, the market has moved on.

But there is nothing about a patent that will generate money of itself. It is merely a right to stop other people making money. In fact, check out today's xkcd

The company I work for mainly use them for a 3rd use, protection, like hedgehog spines. When we get a lawyer's letter from a competitor saying that we infringe one of their patents and can they have 5% of our revenue please, the first thing we do is try to show why we don't, and if we can't that, then we try to show how their patent is invalid. If both of those fail, then we have a look through our patent portfolio and see which of our ideas they are infringeing. There's often something. Then we say "if you sue us, we'll sue you, and only the lawyers are going to make money out of this". The usual response is a cross-license deal agreed out of court, where we each grant a free license to use the other party's intellectual property.

Some companies' entire business plan is simply to acquire IP and then sue everybody that infringes for a cut of their revenue. It's rather leech-like, but it's permitted within our pesent legal/financial system, so it happens. If you patent any smart ideas, you could consider selling them to one of these companies, and then just walk away.

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