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Registered Member #2028
Joined: Mon Mar 16 2009, 08:13PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 319
Im having an argument with a friend of mine, and we just cant come to an agreement. So im asking you guys to be the judge. Could a relay computer ever be able to boot Win 95? At least theoretically?
Registered Member #96
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059
In theory, if it was able to emulate the 80286 (can simulate the maths co processor) but it would take ages to boot based on the switching speed of the relays.
You'd be able to improve a bit on this by loading the entire memory image directly from a disk (same principle as hibernation recovery on 2000/XP/Vista)
For comparison, my N95 will run windows 95, but takes five minutes to boot up (and that has a >300MHz CPU)
Registered Member #2028
Joined: Mon Mar 16 2009, 08:13PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 319
Conundrum wrote ...
In theory, if it was able to emulate the 80286 (can simulate the maths co processor) but it would take ages to boot based on the switching speed of the relays.
You'd be able to improve a bit on this by loading the entire memory image directly from a disk (same principle as hibernation recovery on 2000/XP/Vista)
For comparison, my N95 will run windows 95, but takes five minutes to boot up (and that has a >300MHz CPU)
The fastest relay computer i know of runs at 7Hz. So if my imaginary computer would run at 1Hz the math would look something like this:
300.000.000Hz x 5min / 60 = 25.000.000 Hours
25.000.000 hours / 8760 = 2853,88 years...
Good point, it would take some time. The relays would have worn out many times before its even booted. Myth busted.
But back to theory, is there no lower limit to the frequency needed? Arent there any processes that needs constant calculations to be done, like the clock/calendar?
Registered Member #1232
Joined: Wed Jan 16 2008, 10:53PM
Location: Doon tha Toon!
Posts: 881
Yeah, you'ld probably have to slow the clock speed down to something in the hundreds of Hertz to allow relays time to switch over! They have longer propagation delays than modern solid-state logic
I don't know how many transistors there are on a '286 die, but it would probably need millions of relays to replace them. These would all need to be connected together with wires, which would be a reliability nightmare!
So you'd end up with something that runs incredibly slow, very hot and crashes often. Actually, it probably wouldn't be much different from normal Windows 95.
Registered Member #27
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
My old 80486 computer boots Windows 95 in about 10 seconds at 33 Mhz, so at most 330 million instructions are needed.
Konrad Zuse made computers with standard telephone relays that could do some operations at 40 Hz. I have done some experiments with reed relays and I am sure it is possible to get in the kHz region with small specially designed relays.
There will be reliability issues but it is within theoretical reach.
(I have ignored the question about who will pay for the 100 000 000 relays, the assembly and the advanced error correcting design needed to get reasonable reliability)
What will take all the relays is not the CPU but the RAM, you need at least one relay per bit. A relay is much more computationally powerful than a transistor and you need far fewer relays than transistors and it is possible to design special relays that can replace a large number of transistors. Just think about it, a single relay can work as a latch, a mux and inverter and in some cases all of those at the same time, replacing a significant number of transistors.
Not quite the same result, but it is still a ridiculously long time.
(I have ignored the question about who will pay for the 100 000 000 relays, the assembly and the advanced error correcting design needed to get reasonable reliability)
And another nail in the coffin. Thank you guys, that settled our argument
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Relay computers
