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H3O or H40?

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LAN_403

Wed Feb 07 2007, 10:08PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

I'm searching for a liquid composed predominately of hydrogen molecules for an experiment (liquid at one atmosphere and without freezing preferably). I'm already aware of water H2O, use it for my monthly bath. With regard to H30, I've read on some blogs that H30 is an acid, but others say H3O is form of complex water, some companies are labeling thier water based products H3O strictly as a marketing gimmick eventho their product is mainly just regular ole H20. Looking for a clear answer to exactly what H30 is, so I'm asking here... or if there exists an H40 (the more hydrogen component in the liquid, the better for my experiment). Thanks in advance. CM

...

Wed Feb 07 2007, 11:37PM

Registered Member #56 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2445

Ok, you can't have pure H3O. It just wouldn't work. And H4O doesn't exist period.

H3O is a normal H2O molecule with a H+ ion, or a proton (they are the same thing) that is electrostatically attracted to it.
The concentration of H3O is the basis of pH, the more H3O the lower the pH (meaning it is more of an acid). Normal, pH7, water at room temp has a H3O concentration of 10^-7 mol/liter, and water with a pH of 1 would have 1mol/liter of H3O, or about 2% H3O. But having the extra H+ in there doesn't mean you can extract any more H2 gas out, you need electrons from somewhere.

Really, if you are looking for hydrogen for an experiment, you should look into hydrocarbons. Or maybe ammonia. But really, it depends on how you plan to do with the hydrogen.

Eric

Wed Feb 07 2007, 11:46PM

Registered Member #69 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 07:42AM
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It would help to know what you want it for but forget the h3o and h4o. Alkanes have more hydrogen per unit mass than water, better than having h3o on a mass percentage basis, though not on a volume density basis. Pentane might be a good choice. So, what're you doing?

Thu Feb 08 2007, 02:52AM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Okay, I am replicating a variation of the below repulsion experiment whereby a strong magnetic field repells H2O (apparantly Hydrogen molecules are repelled by strong mag fields from what I've read) and the vegatable oil 'fills the void". I've conducted the below experiment exactly as described, and it works, but can take a long time for the results to manifest. Since I am already using some of the strongest neo mags on the market, I'd like to locate a liquid with a higher Hydrogen content than water in the hopes that the repulsion effect will occur faster compared to using water. Would appreciate helpful comments. CM

Eric

Thu Feb 08 2007, 05:22AM

Registered Member #69 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 07:42AM
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The property you are looking at in that experiment is diamagnetism and it is not specific to elemental constituents (hydrogen) but rather to the overall compound. Ammonia for example is less diamagnetic than water and yet contains more hydrogen per unit mass and volume. So, you'd have to find materials that are most diamagnetic to get more pronounced repulsion.

Bored Chemist

Thu Feb 08 2007, 10:18AM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

You might want to try making the water paramagnetic by dissolving a suitable salt in it like MnCl2 of FeCl3. That way you can get the effect to work the other way for a bit of variety.
Of course, since H2O is diamagnetic and MnCl2 is paramagnetic there must be some concentration where the 2 effects cancel out and the magnetic field has no overall effect.

Thu Feb 08 2007, 01:13PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

I see... so the qty of hydrogen molecules present in a liquid is a vast oversimplification (or irrelevant) to how strongly or weakly the liquid is diamagnetic. You guys have probably guessed by now that I slept through ALL of chemistry class, up until recently I thought the periodic table referred to when my wife would get grouchy once a month. Joking aside, based on the above new info (to me anyway), my question is modifed to .... what liquids are more diamagnetic than water? Or what compound(s) could I add to water to make it more diamagnetic? If there is not a direct answer available here on this board... how can I research the answer? (already googled it with little luck). CM

Coyote Wilde

Fri Feb 09 2007, 02:35AM

Registered Member #175 Joined: Tue Feb 14 2006, 09:32PM
Location: Sudbury, ON
Posts: 111

Metalic Bismuth is extremely diamagnetic.
Not terribly water soluble, IIRC... but it melts at stovetop temperatures.

EDIT: Oh yeah, how to tell diamagnatism: look for unpaired electrons. Grab a cheap second-hand Chem textbook (something geared to a first or second-year University class) ; if the book is worth its salt, you'll be able to gain the skills to make a fairly educated guess at the magnatism of a particular compound or element.

Bored Chemist

Fri Feb 09 2007, 08:50AM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

Close, unpaired electrons give rise to paramagnetism.
Molten bismuth isn't nearly as strongly diamagnetic as the solid.
Then again, I told you that here.

stop4stuff

Fri Feb 09 2007, 01:21PM

Registered Member #64 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:25AM
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 68

CM wrote ...
.... what liquids are more diamagnetic than water?...

try googling for magnetic susceptibility chart

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