H3O or H40?
CM, Wed Feb 07 2007, 10:08PMI'm searching for a liquid composed predominately of hydrogen molecules for an experiment (liquid at one atmosphere and without freezing preferably). I'm already aware of water H2O, use it for my monthly bath. With regard to H30, I've read on some blogs that H30 is an acid, but others say H3O is form of complex water, some companies are labeling thier water based products H3O strictly as a marketing gimmick eventho their product is mainly just regular ole H20. Looking for a clear answer to exactly what H30 is, so I'm asking here... or if there exists an H40 (the more hydrogen component in the liquid, the better for my experiment). Thanks in advance. CM
Re: H3O or H40?
..., Wed Feb 07 2007, 11:37PM
Ok, you can't have pure H3O. It just wouldn't work. And H4O doesn't exist period.
H3O is a normal H2O molecule with a H+ ion, or a proton (they are the same thing) that is electrostatically attracted to it.
The concentration of H3O is the basis of pH, the more H3O the lower the pH (meaning it is more of an acid). Normal, pH7, water at room temp has a H3O concentration of 10^-7 mol/liter, and water with a pH of 1 would have 1mol/liter of H3O, or about 2% H3O. But having the extra H+ in there doesn't mean you can extract any more H2 gas out, you need electrons from somewhere.
Really, if you are looking for hydrogen for an experiment, you should look into hydrocarbons. Or maybe ammonia. But really, it depends on how you plan to do with the hydrogen.
..., Wed Feb 07 2007, 11:37PM
Ok, you can't have pure H3O. It just wouldn't work. And H4O doesn't exist period.
H3O is a normal H2O molecule with a H+ ion, or a proton (they are the same thing) that is electrostatically attracted to it.
The concentration of H3O is the basis of pH, the more H3O the lower the pH (meaning it is more of an acid). Normal, pH7, water at room temp has a H3O concentration of 10^-7 mol/liter, and water with a pH of 1 would have 1mol/liter of H3O, or about 2% H3O. But having the extra H+ in there doesn't mean you can extract any more H2 gas out, you need electrons from somewhere.
Really, if you are looking for hydrogen for an experiment, you should look into hydrocarbons. Or maybe ammonia. But really, it depends on how you plan to do with the hydrogen.
Re: H3O or H40?
Eric, Wed Feb 07 2007, 11:46PM
It would help to know what you want it for but forget the h3o and h4o. Alkanes have more hydrogen per unit mass than water, better than having h3o on a mass percentage basis, though not on a volume density basis. Pentane might be a good choice. So, what're you doing?
Eric, Wed Feb 07 2007, 11:46PM
It would help to know what you want it for but forget the h3o and h4o. Alkanes have more hydrogen per unit mass than water, better than having h3o on a mass percentage basis, though not on a volume density basis. Pentane might be a good choice. So, what're you doing?
Re: H3O or H40?
CM, Thu Feb 08 2007, 02:52AM
Okay, I am replicating a variation of the below repulsion experiment whereby a strong magnetic field repells H2O (apparantly Hydrogen molecules are repelled by strong mag fields from what I've read) and the vegatable oil 'fills the void". I've conducted the below experiment exactly as described, and it works, but can take a long time for the results to manifest. Since I am already using some of the strongest neo mags on the market, I'd like to locate a liquid with a higher Hydrogen content than water in the hopes that the repulsion effect will occur faster compared to using water. Would appreciate helpful comments. CM
CM, Thu Feb 08 2007, 02:52AM
Okay, I am replicating a variation of the below repulsion experiment whereby a strong magnetic field repells H2O (apparantly Hydrogen molecules are repelled by strong mag fields from what I've read) and the vegatable oil 'fills the void". I've conducted the below experiment exactly as described, and it works, but can take a long time for the results to manifest. Since I am already using some of the strongest neo mags on the market, I'd like to locate a liquid with a higher Hydrogen content than water in the hopes that the repulsion effect will occur faster compared to using water. Would appreciate helpful comments. CM
Re: H3O or H40?
Eric, Thu Feb 08 2007, 05:22AM
The property you are looking at in that experiment is diamagnetism and it is not specific to elemental constituents (hydrogen) but rather to the overall compound. Ammonia for example is less diamagnetic than water and yet contains more hydrogen per unit mass and volume. So, you'd have to find materials that are most diamagnetic to get more pronounced repulsion.
Eric, Thu Feb 08 2007, 05:22AM
The property you are looking at in that experiment is diamagnetism and it is not specific to elemental constituents (hydrogen) but rather to the overall compound. Ammonia for example is less diamagnetic than water and yet contains more hydrogen per unit mass and volume. So, you'd have to find materials that are most diamagnetic to get more pronounced repulsion.
Re: H3O or H40?
Bored Chemist, Thu Feb 08 2007, 10:18AM
You might want to try making the water paramagnetic by dissolving a suitable salt in it like MnCl2 of FeCl3. That way you can get the effect to work the other way for a bit of variety.
Of course, since H2O is diamagnetic and MnCl2 is paramagnetic there must be some concentration where the 2 effects cancel out and the magnetic field has no overall effect.
Bored Chemist, Thu Feb 08 2007, 10:18AM
You might want to try making the water paramagnetic by dissolving a suitable salt in it like MnCl2 of FeCl3. That way you can get the effect to work the other way for a bit of variety.
Of course, since H2O is diamagnetic and MnCl2 is paramagnetic there must be some concentration where the 2 effects cancel out and the magnetic field has no overall effect.
Re: H3O or H40?
CM, Thu Feb 08 2007, 01:13PM
I see... so the qty of hydrogen molecules present in a liquid is a vast oversimplification (or irrelevant) to how strongly or weakly the liquid is diamagnetic. You guys have probably guessed by now that I slept through ALL of chemistry class, up until recently I thought the periodic table referred to when my wife would get grouchy once a month. Joking aside, based on the above new info (to me anyway), my question is modifed to .... what liquids are more diamagnetic than water? Or what compound(s) could I add to water to make it more diamagnetic? If there is not a direct answer available here on this board... how can I research the answer? (already googled it with little luck). CM
CM, Thu Feb 08 2007, 01:13PM
I see... so the qty of hydrogen molecules present in a liquid is a vast oversimplification (or irrelevant) to how strongly or weakly the liquid is diamagnetic. You guys have probably guessed by now that I slept through ALL of chemistry class, up until recently I thought the periodic table referred to when my wife would get grouchy once a month. Joking aside, based on the above new info (to me anyway), my question is modifed to .... what liquids are more diamagnetic than water? Or what compound(s) could I add to water to make it more diamagnetic? If there is not a direct answer available here on this board... how can I research the answer? (already googled it with little luck). CM
Re: H3O or H40?
Coyote Wilde, Fri Feb 09 2007, 02:35AM
Metalic Bismuth is extremely diamagnetic.
Not terribly water soluble, IIRC... but it melts at stovetop temperatures.
EDIT: Oh yeah, how to tell diamagnatism: look for unpaired electrons. Grab a cheap second-hand Chem textbook (something geared to a first or second-year University class) ; if the book is worth its salt, you'll be able to gain the skills to make a fairly educated guess at the magnatism of a particular compound or element.
Coyote Wilde, Fri Feb 09 2007, 02:35AM
Metalic Bismuth is extremely diamagnetic.
Not terribly water soluble, IIRC... but it melts at stovetop temperatures.
EDIT: Oh yeah, how to tell diamagnatism: look for unpaired electrons. Grab a cheap second-hand Chem textbook (something geared to a first or second-year University class) ; if the book is worth its salt, you'll be able to gain the skills to make a fairly educated guess at the magnatism of a particular compound or element.
Re: H3O or H40?
Bored Chemist, Fri Feb 09 2007, 08:50AM
Close, unpaired electrons give rise to paramagnetism.
Molten bismuth isn't nearly as strongly diamagnetic as the solid.
Then again, I told you that here.
Bored Chemist, Fri Feb 09 2007, 08:50AM
Close, unpaired electrons give rise to paramagnetism.
Molten bismuth isn't nearly as strongly diamagnetic as the solid.
Then again, I told you that here.
Re: H3O or H40?
stop4stuff, Fri Feb 09 2007, 01:21PM
try googling for magnetic susceptibility chart
stop4stuff, Fri Feb 09 2007, 01:21PM
CM wrote ...
.... what liquids are more diamagnetic than water?...
.... what liquids are more diamagnetic than water?...
try googling for magnetic susceptibility chart
Re: H3O or H40?
CM, Fri Feb 09 2007, 05:35PM
Stop4:
Thanks, that did the trick, I think.
Looking at Water on the Magnetic Properties & Susceptibilities Chart
water appears to be the most negative measurement on the list, therefore, should I assume that translates to water being the most diamagnetic liquid? Sometimes I tend to oversimplify, so I'm asking. CM
CM, Fri Feb 09 2007, 05:35PM
Stop4:
Thanks, that did the trick, I think.
Looking at Water on the Magnetic Properties & Susceptibilities Chart
water appears to be the most negative measurement on the list, therefore, should I assume that translates to water being the most diamagnetic liquid? Sometimes I tend to oversimplify, so I'm asking. CM
Re: H3O or H40?
Dr. Shark, Fri Feb 09 2007, 06:32PM
I also looked at the list, I spotted only three liquids, being:
Mercury (liquid) Hg -33.4
Nitric acid HNO3 -19.9
Water H20 -7.2×10-7 emu
The units on water are different (emu instead of cgs units, whatever that is), so it is impossible to compare - at least for me.
What is your application for this stuff? I am asking because maybe a fine metal power could be substituted for the liquid, which would make things much easier.
PS: some more data on liquids:
Compound Name (−106 ×SI Units:Dimensionless)
Acetone 5.78
Benzene 7.68
Carbon tetrachloride 8.68
Dimethyl sulfoxide 8.55
D2O 8.82
Ethanol 7.23
Ethylene glycol 8.77
D-Glucose (25â—¦C) 10.92
Glycerol 9.79
H2O 9.04
Mannitol 11.40
Methanol 6.66
Myristic acid (60â—¦C) 8.31
Oleic acid (18â—¦C) 8.31
Palmitic acid (62â—¦C) 8.31
Toluene 7.76
from Weast RC. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press; 1983.
Dr. Shark, Fri Feb 09 2007, 06:32PM
I also looked at the list, I spotted only three liquids, being:
Mercury (liquid) Hg -33.4
Nitric acid HNO3 -19.9
Water H20 -7.2×10-7 emu
The units on water are different (emu instead of cgs units, whatever that is), so it is impossible to compare - at least for me.
What is your application for this stuff? I am asking because maybe a fine metal power could be substituted for the liquid, which would make things much easier.
PS: some more data on liquids:
Compound Name (−106 ×SI Units:Dimensionless)
Acetone 5.78
Benzene 7.68
Carbon tetrachloride 8.68
Dimethyl sulfoxide 8.55
D2O 8.82
Ethanol 7.23
Ethylene glycol 8.77
D-Glucose (25â—¦C) 10.92
Glycerol 9.79
H2O 9.04
Mannitol 11.40
Methanol 6.66
Myristic acid (60â—¦C) 8.31
Oleic acid (18â—¦C) 8.31
Palmitic acid (62â—¦C) 8.31
Toluene 7.76
from Weast RC. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press; 1983.
Re: H3O or H40?
stop4stuff, Fri Feb 09 2007, 08:47PM
from
"emu/cm3 or emu/cc
a CGS unit of magnetization"
the column heading of the Reade chart says x10-6 & water is shown as x10-7
stop4stuff, Fri Feb 09 2007, 08:47PM
from
"emu/cm3 or emu/cc
a CGS unit of magnetization"
the column heading of the Reade chart
says x10-6 & water is shown as x10-7Re: H3O or H40?
CM, Fri Feb 09 2007, 09:25PM
I wondered what EMU meant also in the H20 measurement. My application is a variation on this demonstration but I would prefer to speed things up by using a liquid that is more diamagnetic than water... if it exists and doesn't require exotic conditions to exist as a liquid. CM
CM, Fri Feb 09 2007, 09:25PM
I wondered what EMU meant also in the H20 measurement. My application is a variation on this demonstration
but I would prefer to speed things up by using a liquid that is more diamagnetic than water... if it exists and doesn't require exotic conditions to exist as a liquid. CMRe: H3O or H40?
Bored Chemist, Sat Feb 10 2007, 02:25PM
Electromagnetic units rather than centimetre gram second units. Ugh!
Anyway, if what you want to achive is a demonstration of liquid drops repeled by a magnet, cheat.
A helium balloon in air is aparently repeled by the earth's gravitational field. Clearly that's not because it has negative mass, but because the air has a bigger positive mass. In the same way a drop of slightly diamagnetic oil in a strong solution of a paramagnetic salt like MnCl2 would be repelled quite strongly. Paramagnetic effects are typically a hundred times bigger than diamagnetic ones so, even allowing for the fact that the solution isn't pure paramagnetic MnCl2 the overall effect should be bigger. Of course, you could look for materials which are soluble in oil and paramagnetic then use a solution of that with pure water - the water would be repelled and the paramagnetic solution attracted. It's a lot easier to find MnCl2 than, for example, Ferric acetylacetonate.
Bored Chemist, Sat Feb 10 2007, 02:25PM
Electromagnetic units rather than centimetre gram second units. Ugh!
Anyway, if what you want to achive is a demonstration of liquid drops repeled by a magnet, cheat.
A helium balloon in air is aparently repeled by the earth's gravitational field. Clearly that's not because it has negative mass, but because the air has a bigger positive mass. In the same way a drop of slightly diamagnetic oil in a strong solution of a paramagnetic salt like MnCl2 would be repelled quite strongly. Paramagnetic effects are typically a hundred times bigger than diamagnetic ones so, even allowing for the fact that the solution isn't pure paramagnetic MnCl2 the overall effect should be bigger. Of course, you could look for materials which are soluble in oil and paramagnetic then use a solution of that with pure water - the water would be repelled and the paramagnetic solution attracted. It's a lot easier to find MnCl2 than, for example, Ferric acetylacetonate.
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