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Sunburned face from sparks (REASON FOUND!? CHECK OUT 29th POST)

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Tesladownunder

Thu Jan 18 2007, 05:06PM

Registered Member #10 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 09:45AM
Location: Bunbury, Australia
Posts: 1424

CM wrote ...

I know I said we've run this thread dry, but then I found the below. Looks like Bjorn gets the 4HV.org pat on the back for coming up with the most plauseable reason for my 'sunburned' face. Seems there is some basis for his static induced theory for why my face sometimes gets red when I am sitting infront of my spark gap, check it out:

"Over the last couple of decades there has been, at least in Europe, a great deal of concern voiced over the static electric field generated by monitors and television screens. It is this field that makes dust and other particles plate out on the screen, due to simple static attraction as well as polarization forces. If a person is sitting close to the screen, the field will be distorted and will converge toward the person's face, and the particles will then plate out on his or her nose, forehead, and cheeks. Studies have shown that any static field on a person's face will dramatically increase the plate-out rate of particles, and scientists have speculated that this may result in an increase in the occurrence of rashes and more-serious skin diseases such as eczema, given the presence of allergens or other unsavory substances in the air. " Bravo Bjorn! CM

In the below URL look under "Static Field Remover".

You seem very confident of your medical diagnosis with zero quoted evidence that electrostatic fields cause rashes. Sure there are 16 year old studies published in obscure publications (presumably not peer reviewed) that sitting in front of a VDU all day is not good for you. There is no proof that this is due to electrostatic fields however tempting the association may be to you. There are many possibiilities including people who don't sit in front of VDU's all day may actually be healthier. The diagnosis of eczema was not made by a dermatologist as far as I can determine and no placebo-controlled double blinded studies appear to be quoted.
Allergens in the air is not as far as I know, a recognised cause of eczema (unlike asthma and hay fever). Allergens on the skin need a portal of entry before through to the dermis before an allergic response can be mounted and even then you will get wheals rather than eczema.

If you sit in a car all day you need to consider UV exposure even though you may feel cool and glass blocks a good amount of UV. Sunburn is far less speculative that what you propose.

Peter

Bored Chemist

Thu Jan 18 2007, 06:24PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

"Allergens in the air is not as far as I know, a recognised cause of eczema (unlike asthma and hay fever). Allergens on the skin need a portal of entry before through to the dermis before an allergic response can be mounted and even then you will get wheals rather than eczema"
I'm not a dermatologist, but I'm pretty sure that allergic dermatitis isa real phenomenon. Google certainly gives lots of hits for it.
Glass does a prett good job of blocking UV. Tinted glass does even bettter.
OTOH, unplasticised pvc has no chromophore that would absorb moderately long wave from a spark.

Thu Jan 18 2007, 06:52PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Based on previous posts by what appear to be knowledgeable people here, the likelihood of Xrays/Gamma rays being produced by my spark gap in magnitudes great enough to radiate my face 'red' seems unlikely (or did I misunderstand those posts?). UV or sunlight getting into my RV is last on my list of suspects, the windows are tiny and all covered in very dark UV film, so dark that on some days I must turn on a light to work. The static induced 'rash' mentioned in the url is from a recognized authority in static Niels Jonassen, MS, DSc, Technical University of Denmark, where he has conducted classes on static electricity, ions, and indoor climate. He still runs his laboratory. Niels says "Studies have shown that any static field on a person's face will dramatically increase the plate-out rate of particles, and scientists have speculated that this may result in an increase in the occurrence of rashes...". True, it's not a diagnosis, but if we are to rule out spark emissions (?) and sunlight/UV (which I do), the static option seems the most likely candidate that's been mentioned so far. The publication you referenced also appears to support that static induced redness is not uncommon among people around static sources for extended periods of time complaining of "a glowing sensation, rather like sunburn" which is a great way to describe what I experience after sitting at my spark gap and static filled table top for hours. Thanks for the article. CM

...

Thu Jan 18 2007, 11:10PM

Registered Member #56 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2445

Actually, how do you get to the site? There is a decent chance that you are getting sunburned on the drive to/from the site...

Fri Jan 19 2007, 01:53AM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

I drive my truck, tinted windows, no sunroof. If it were caused by sun/uv, I'd get sunburned whereever I drive my truck... not just when I drive to my test site. Also, I don't feel sunburned when I get to my test site, only after a long day sitting at my table (but not necessarily EVERY day). CM

ragnar

Fri Jan 19 2007, 07:53AM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

Not that I have any idea on where your sunburn comes from... but if you're in the sun for a bit, the damage only appears (and feels tangible) several hours later.

Coronafix

Fri Jan 19 2007, 10:08AM

Registered Member #160 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 02:07AM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 938

I think that CM has made it clear that he believes the source of his sunburn
comes from the spark gap on his desk. His face is more burned on one side (the spark gap side), it feels especially burnt after a long day in the lab, the RV is tinted, his truck is tinted. He feels he has ruled out all possibilities of other sources of his sunburn.
If his deductions are to be trusted (and why not since we have no other data), then it leaves only the spark gap as the source of the infliction.
We should then ask ourselves why?
CM, you said the spark gap is usually set between 1-10cm (10-100mm in my language), does the face burning feel any different when the gap is set at different distances?
By the way, I think that the electric field reaction is highly plausible.
A 100mm spark gap is quite a voltage, isn't the electric field associated with that also quite large?

Fri Jan 19 2007, 05:41PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

I haven't paid close attention to the possible correlation between my occassional red face and the distance between the spark gap electrodes, but I'll start taking notice. The last week or so I've been setting the spark gap to very short distances so that the sparks jump around the clock... and coincidentially I haven't noticed any red face over the last few days. With the larger spark gap distances, there are times the V of the collectors isn't high enough to cause a spark to jump a large gap, so in order to keep a reliable (pulsed) charge going to the load, usually a bank of super caps, lately I've been using a narrow gap. The narrow gap increases the frequency of the spark jumping, at the expense of decreasing the V and current per spark. Overall tho, its starting to look like the narrow gap is best since it is easier on the buck converter (occassionally the 40 amp 1N1190AR diode in the buck converter will blow when using a large gap) and works round the clock when sometimes a larger gap won't, thus delivering a more reliable charging to the supercaps (me thinks). Testing continues everyday, in the pic, if you look hard you can see some of my highly skilled assistants near the base of one of the towers. (In fact, I could use some friendly advice from someone familar with HV highpass/low pass filters for my next test) I'm at **link** CM

mod edit: I guess you meant to add the picture?

Tesladownunder

Sat Jan 20 2007, 04:23AM

Registered Member #10 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 09:45AM
Location: Bunbury, Australia
Posts: 1424

Bored Chemist wrote ...

"Allergens in the air is not as far as I know, a recognised cause of eczema (unlike asthma and hay fever). Allergens on the skin need a portal of entry before through to the dermis before an allergic response can be mounted and even then you will get wheals rather than eczema"
I'm not a dermatologist, but I'm pretty sure that allergic dermatitis isa real phenomenon. Google certainly gives lots of hits for it.

I am talking about dust carried in the air (aero-allergens) of which typically house dust mite faeces and pollens are the main offenders in rhinitis for example but these are not as I am aware likely to be a cause of a red face. On the other hand Type 4 cell mediated immunity can be triggered by contact with allergens applied in liquid form such as allergy to topical cream preparations or with longer contact with solids such as with nickel allergy. We are not talking about that type but rather dust settling out of the air under the influence of electric fields.
The authority quoted may know his electric fields but I bet you none of his studies have made it into the dermatological journals.

I realise that glass blocks (short) UV well. I have done a lot of stuff with my TEA nitrogen lasers and 331 nm output. So here is some science.
Photo 1 Dual UV unit (which is switchable to either short or long wave UV).
Photo 2 Long wave UV (UVA) through tinted car window on to fluorescent marker covered paper. It passes without much attenuation. The tape casts a shadow to confirm the direction of the source.
Photo 3 Short wave UV (UVB) at 2500 angstroms is blocked but this is really short wavelength stuff.

Hence long UV wavelengths (UVA) may pass quite readily through a tinted window. These will still have energy enough to cause sunburn (and cancer) although not as readily as the short wave. Interestingly my UV coated glasses block both apparently completely.

Sunburn is sunburn and is a the most common cause of a red face. Second most common is jumping to conclusions without evidence.

Red faces aside, I envy your setup. I have had an interest in atmospheric electricity ever since waving the gate of a FET in the air and watching the drain source current change over 20 years ago.

Peter

Sat Jan 20 2007, 06:36PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

TeslaDownunder:

Nice site that you have there. CM

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