resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Thu Jul 11 2019, 04:14PMHi I'm mucking around with parrellel resonance circuit to store energy. So far I've built a frequency generator that can move around 50khz, its just a hex inverter with a pot to adjust it, driving a full bridge.
I'm trying to keep the input to 12 volt 1 amp.
Still need to get the PRC parts.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Sulaiman, Fri Jul 12 2019, 12:43AM
Good Luck !
An L.C resonant circuit also has some R, which will consume your energy.
You will need an unachievably high Q to store energy for a significant period of time.
Even if you achieve a very high electrical Q, some energy will be lost to electromagnetic and electrostatic losses/radiation etc.
Example : suppose that your signal generator can supply 1W of power to your resonant circuit,
initially the voltage and current levels (VAR) in your resonant circuit will build up,
the resonant circuit will have a Q value,
suppose that you make a really good resonant circuit with a Q of 1000
(not easy because it is difficult to make a low-loss high power inductor)
the energy circulating in the resonant circuit will self-limit at QxPin, in this case 1000VAR.
That could be 10Vx100A, 100Vx10A, 1kV.1A etc. dependant upon your design choices.
So, I think that you may be a little disappointed with your results,
but you should attempt this anyway as you will learn many useful things from such a (theoretically) simple circuit.
Please notice that even using a small amplifier/oscillator (1W in my example) a low-loss (high Q) resonant circuit can build up energy to a shocking level.
Sulaiman, Fri Jul 12 2019, 12:43AM
Good Luck !
An L.C resonant circuit also has some R, which will consume your energy.
You will need an unachievably high Q to store energy for a significant period of time.
Even if you achieve a very high electrical Q, some energy will be lost to electromagnetic and electrostatic losses/radiation etc.
Example : suppose that your signal generator can supply 1W of power to your resonant circuit,
initially the voltage and current levels (VAR) in your resonant circuit will build up,
the resonant circuit will have a Q value,
suppose that you make a really good resonant circuit with a Q of 1000
(not easy because it is difficult to make a low-loss high power inductor)
the energy circulating in the resonant circuit will self-limit at QxPin, in this case 1000VAR.
That could be 10Vx100A, 100Vx10A, 1kV.1A etc. dependant upon your design choices.
So, I think that you may be a little disappointed with your results,
but you should attempt this anyway as you will learn many useful things from such a (theoretically) simple circuit.
Please notice that even using a small amplifier/oscillator (1W in my example) a low-loss (high Q) resonant circuit can build up energy to a shocking level.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Fri Jul 12 2019, 08:29PM
The. Frequency generator, it seems to work.
The DMM reads 4v AC and 22-55khz 47% duty cycle.
Plasma, Fri Jul 12 2019, 08:29PM
The. Frequency generator, it seems to work.
The DMM reads 4v AC and 22-55khz 47% duty cycle.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Sulaiman, Sat Jul 13 2019, 02:38AM
Consider a diode across each mosfet, something like 1N5822.
And a fuse in series with the bridge output.
There will be a lot of energy sloshing around in your resonant circuit,
enough to destroy your mosfets if things do not go as expected
i.e. under normal conditions ;)
Sulaiman, Sat Jul 13 2019, 02:38AM
Consider a diode across each mosfet, something like 1N5822.
And a fuse in series with the bridge output.
There will be a lot of energy sloshing around in your resonant circuit,
enough to destroy your mosfets if things do not go as expected
i.e. under normal conditions ;)
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Thu Jul 18 2019, 06:09AM
Thanks for the tips Suliman. I had to adjust it abit, and put the square wave generator on its own power supply.
Its a lot more stable.
When I connect the tank circuit, there's no voltage across it, and got less when I added the second stage.
Plasma, Thu Jul 18 2019, 06:09AM
Thanks for the tips Suliman. I had to adjust it abit, and put the square wave generator on its own power supply.
Its a lot more stable.
When I connect the tank circuit, there's no voltage across it, and got less when I added the second stage.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Sulaiman, Thu Jul 18 2019, 08:16AM
Can you post a link to your circuit diagram ?
(a photo of a hand drawn circuit diagram will suffice)
Sulaiman, Thu Jul 18 2019, 08:16AM
Can you post a link to your circuit diagram ?
(a photo of a hand drawn circuit diagram will suffice)
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Thu Jul 18 2019, 02:01PM
The values are different, both inductor's are 47uH and the capacitors are 220nF.
Using a peak detector I get
Stage 1 ,10.50
Stage 2. , 12.81
Stage 3. ,13.50
That's DC, what would the AC voltage be ,I need that to workout the current.
It lowers when I move it out of resonance.
Plasma, Thu Jul 18 2019, 02:01PM
The values are different, both inductor's are 47uH and the capacitors are 220nF.
Using a peak detector I get
Stage 1 ,10.50
Stage 2. , 12.81
Stage 3. ,13.50
That's DC, what would the AC voltage be ,I need that to workout the current.
It lowers when I move it out of resonance.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sat Jul 20 2019, 12:04AM
Found some of the problems Suleiman. The resistor to the IC dropped 3v , the p and n MOSFETs went turning fully on, and the same leg would.
I've got a revised circuit, hopefully you can check it.
Plasma, Sat Jul 20 2019, 12:04AM
Found some of the problems Suleiman. The resistor to the IC dropped 3v , the p and n MOSFETs went turning fully on, and the same leg would.
I've got a revised circuit, hopefully you can check it.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Sulaiman, Sat Jul 20 2019, 01:10AM
Your H-Bridge looks wrong to me.
Have a look at this web page
and build a bridge similar to this
the two optocouplers can each be replaced with an NPN transistor plus 1k to 10k in series with the base.
In the last diagram the connections between the mosfet drains and the outputs is missing !
The load would of course be your resonant circuit(s), not a motor ;)
Your inductors and capacitors resonate at about 50 kHz so I'd use 100R 3W resistors for R1 and R2
During your initial design/testing I would put a 12V (21W or similar) car bulb in series with the bridge output,
this gives an instant indication of (and protection from) excessive current.
It will also indicate when your are at the resonant frequency of your resonant circuit(s)
Sulaiman, Sat Jul 20 2019, 01:10AM
Your H-Bridge looks wrong to me.
Have a look at this web page
and build a bridge similar to this
the two optocouplers can each be replaced with an NPN transistor plus 1k to 10k in series with the base.
In the last diagram the connections between the mosfet drains and the outputs is missing !
The load would of course be your resonant circuit(s), not a motor ;)
Your inductors and capacitors resonate at about 50 kHz so I'd use 100R 3W resistors for R1 and R2
During your initial design/testing I would put a 12V (21W or similar) car bulb in series with the bridge output,
this gives an instant indication of (and protection from) excessive current.
It will also indicate when your are at the resonant frequency of your resonant circuit(s)
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Jul 23 2019, 12:57AM
I've added a halgyin bulb to the list tonight, I've got 5 3amp fuses and clips from last one. R1 r2 is that for the voltage divider for the N channel MOSFETs? Or for resonance part?
I've pretty much copy pasted, but added 3 amp diode after the P MOSFETs so I can short AC leads without both N MOSFETs turning on.
Plasma, Tue Jul 23 2019, 12:57AM
I've added a halgyin bulb to the list tonight, I've got 5 3amp fuses and clips from last one. R1 r2 is that for the voltage divider for the N channel MOSFETs? Or for resonance part?
I've pretty much copy pasted, but added 3 amp diode after the P MOSFETs so I can short AC leads without both N MOSFETs turning on.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Sulaiman, Tue Jul 23 2019, 05:11AM
The upper (p-ch) and lower (n-ch) drains are not connected and the upper diodes are wrongly connected.
I prefer the circuit in the last link that I posted above.
Sulaiman, Tue Jul 23 2019, 05:11AM
The upper (p-ch) and lower (n-ch) drains are not connected and the upper diodes are wrongly connected.
I prefer the circuit in the last link that I posted above.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sat Jul 27 2019, 04:07AM
Built a new test circuit, I'm finally measure 6 volt AC open circuit on the H-bridge , but from 20khz up to 41khz it adjust and is stable, try going over that the plug pack whines, and the frequency bounces around +-15khz .
Connected to the resonance circuit it reads 0 volt on the whole frequency range, peak detector reads zero.
Measure voltage from the top to the end of stage 3 of the series parts gets between 4-11 volt AC does that mean the 3rd stage sees 11v in the parrellel part?
Or would it be 6+11=17volt ?
Measuring across parallel parts still reads zero which I think its meant to.
Plasma, Sat Jul 27 2019, 04:07AM
Built a new test circuit, I'm finally measure 6 volt AC open circuit on the H-bridge , but from 20khz up to 41khz it adjust and is stable, try going over that the plug pack whines, and the frequency bounces around +-15khz .
Connected to the resonance circuit it reads 0 volt on the whole frequency range, peak detector reads zero.
Measure voltage from the top to the end of stage 3 of the series parts gets between 4-11 volt AC does that mean the 3rd stage sees 11v in the parrellel part?
Or would it be 6+11=17volt ?
Measuring across parallel parts still reads zero which I think its meant to.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Mon Jul 29 2019, 05:51AM
Slap head:) the 4069 I was using for timing and driving the gates is 520uA I was trying to get 1mA min,
I'm going to try the l6202 h bridge IC it only needs 10uA for switching, and gives some room to increase the voltage up to 36volt.
Might look at MOSFET drivers for later.
Plasma, Mon Jul 29 2019, 05:51AM
Slap head:) the 4069 I was using for timing and driving the gates is 520uA I was trying to get 1mA min,
I'm going to try the l6202 h bridge IC it only needs 10uA for switching, and gives some room to increase the voltage up to 36volt.
Might look at MOSFET drivers for later.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Fri Aug 02 2019, 02:20AM
Test the timing bit, I used a 5 volt regulator and 20k fixed resistor with a 50k pot in series, with 100pF caps,.
Testing show 3.50v DC between the two signal pins, with 47khz to >98khz, and 51% duty cycle over the range.
I'm getting the l6202 IC next week to start trying the other stuff.
Plasma, Fri Aug 02 2019, 02:20AM
Test the timing bit, I used a 5 volt regulator and 20k fixed resistor with a 50k pot in series, with 100pF caps,.
Testing show 3.50v DC between the two signal pins, with 47khz to >98khz, and 51% duty cycle over the range.
I'm getting the l6202 IC next week to start trying the other stuff.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Aug 06 2019, 11:27PM
Installed the H bridge IC , the DMM doesn't show much voltage unless I touch points with only one probe.
The parrelal part gets quite warm, the series one not so much....it has to have more power going through than the DMM reads.
Need abit of help the outputs from 4069 inverter is 1.7v, I'm not sure its enough for the bridge IC, spent a good hour on Google and I might have to adjust Vref .
I put a diode and cap on the bridge output, and it slowly climbed up to 7v DC,
Has anyone got a suggestion?
Plasma, Tue Aug 06 2019, 11:27PM
Installed the H bridge IC , the DMM doesn't show much voltage unless I touch points with only one probe.
The parrelal part gets quite warm, the series one not so much....it has to have more power going through than the DMM reads.
Need abit of help the outputs from 4069 inverter is 1.7v, I'm not sure its enough for the bridge IC, spent a good hour on Google and I might have to adjust Vref .
I put a diode and cap on the bridge output, and it slowly climbed up to 7v DC,
Has anyone got a suggestion?
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Fri Aug 09 2019, 06:12AM
Replaced the 4069 with 74c14 Schmitt inverter, the frequency range changed.
The series and parrelel circuit are 28 Z 50mohm with a Q of 560. Setting the frequency at resonance and measuring across the series part gets 2.4V shift ever side drops down to a low of 0.16V.
Adding a second stage and measuring from were the first one was measured shows 2.7V, measuring across both stages shows 3.0V AC. The second stage, has a smaller inductor larger capacitor.
The simulation got lower jumps with more stages, but each stage raised the volts.
The IC chip gets hot, I think because of the voltage drop, I plan to use this circuit to drive a H bridge, having four N channel MOSFETs 600V 15A.
The power supply is 9+9V 200mA. At resonance the series multiple the voltage, but the parrelel part limits the current, making the volts 14^2 / 0.025 line sourced current.
The idea is to have multiple stages were each parrelel part allows extra current through the beginning series parts, and isolated the parrelel part to late switch a short to extract the joules in it.
Plasma, Fri Aug 09 2019, 06:12AM
Replaced the 4069 with 74c14 Schmitt inverter, the frequency range changed.
The series and parrelel circuit are 28 Z 50mohm with a Q of 560. Setting the frequency at resonance and measuring across the series part gets 2.4V shift ever side drops down to a low of 0.16V.
Adding a second stage and measuring from were the first one was measured shows 2.7V, measuring across both stages shows 3.0V AC. The second stage, has a smaller inductor larger capacitor.
The simulation got lower jumps with more stages, but each stage raised the volts.
The IC chip gets hot, I think because of the voltage drop, I plan to use this circuit to drive a H bridge, having four N channel MOSFETs 600V 15A.
The power supply is 9+9V 200mA. At resonance the series multiple the voltage, but the parrelel part limits the current, making the volts 14^2 / 0.025 line sourced current.
The idea is to have multiple stages were each parrelel part allows extra current through the beginning series parts, and isolated the parrelel part to late switch a short to extract the joules in it.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sun Aug 18 2019, 02:08AM
Got some 470uH chokes and 22nF caps for series parts, its about 140 impendence times current should be the voltage, measured at 0.465Vac.
Not quite sure what's going on, after 30seconds the frequency gets stable, its tuned to 49.9khz close to resonance.
Parrelleled the 12V plug pack should handle 2.5A. On simulation there's two frequency on the ossalscope .
The circuit has very narrow bandwidth, probably around 200Hz.if I hit the sweat spot min and max values are a lot different. I tried adding resistance to the series parts, of 12ohm didn't increase the bandwidth by much.
Fixed a problem with the bridge IC, forgot to add a resistor from the enable pin to ground, it works a lot better.
Tried putting 6 and 12 ohm across the third stage hoping to draw more current ,didn't really work much.
Plasma, Sun Aug 18 2019, 02:08AM
Got some 470uH chokes and 22nF caps for series parts, its about 140 impendence times current should be the voltage, measured at 0.465Vac.
Not quite sure what's going on, after 30seconds the frequency gets stable, its tuned to 49.9khz close to resonance.
Parrelleled the 12V plug pack should handle 2.5A. On simulation there's two frequency on the ossalscope .
The circuit has very narrow bandwidth, probably around 200Hz.if I hit the sweat spot min and max values are a lot different. I tried adding resistance to the series parts, of 12ohm didn't increase the bandwidth by much.
Fixed a problem with the bridge IC, forgot to add a resistor from the enable pin to ground, it works a lot better.
Tried putting 6 and 12 ohm across the third stage hoping to draw more current ,didn't really work much.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Mon Aug 19 2019, 02:48AM
After all this, found out both my 12V powerpluga are stuff, switched to 3 9V plugs.
Adding more stages only increased the voltage drop over two tank circuit parts, tried to fix that with below picture.
At resonance the voltage was the lowest, it increased moving away.
Plasma, Mon Aug 19 2019, 02:48AM
After all this, found out both my 12V powerpluga are stuff, switched to 3 9V plugs.
Adding more stages only increased the voltage drop over two tank circuit parts, tried to fix that with below picture.
At resonance the voltage was the lowest, it increased moving away.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Sulaiman, Mon Aug 19 2019, 04:06AM
a few personal opinions :
the filament lamp in series with the output is a good idea,
short-circuit protection with indication of current flow.
I think that you should use a half-bridge for your initial experimentation as this allows a fixed 0v reference for monitoring and measurements.
The maximum energy that can be stored in an L.C circuit is
(0.5 x L x Ipk^2) or (0.5 x C x Vpk^2), whichever is LOWER,
... there is no way around this.
As I mentioned earlier, you need as little resistance in the resonant circuit as possible to reduce power loss due to heating,
this requires a high 'Q' circuit,
which by definition means that the bandwidth will be VERY small.
Due to the tolerances of your components, each section will not be (series- or parallel-) resonant at the same frequency.
I would start with a much simpler resonant circuit ...
from the (half-)bridge output to the resonant circuit use a capacitor to connect to a simple resonant circuit consisting of
(a selection of) capacitors in parallel with (a selection of inductors in series)
beware of high voltage across the resonant circuit.
At resonance the current supplied by the bridge will be much less than the current in the resonant circuit, by the ratio (Cseries) : (Cparallel)
Experiment with this simple configuration to determine the voltage and current (and VAR) limitations of your capacitors and inductors.
(too much voltage will destroy capacitors, too much current will saturate the inductors)
and proceed from there.
Sulaiman, Mon Aug 19 2019, 04:06AM
a few personal opinions :
the filament lamp in series with the output is a good idea,
short-circuit protection with indication of current flow.
I think that you should use a half-bridge for your initial experimentation as this allows a fixed 0v reference for monitoring and measurements.
The maximum energy that can be stored in an L.C circuit is
(0.5 x L x Ipk^2) or (0.5 x C x Vpk^2), whichever is LOWER,
... there is no way around this.
As I mentioned earlier, you need as little resistance in the resonant circuit as possible to reduce power loss due to heating,
this requires a high 'Q' circuit,
which by definition means that the bandwidth will be VERY small.
Due to the tolerances of your components, each section will not be (series- or parallel-) resonant at the same frequency.
I would start with a much simpler resonant circuit ...
from the (half-)bridge output to the resonant circuit use a capacitor to connect to a simple resonant circuit consisting of
(a selection of) capacitors in parallel with (a selection of inductors in series)
beware of high voltage across the resonant circuit.
At resonance the current supplied by the bridge will be much less than the current in the resonant circuit, by the ratio (Cseries) : (Cparallel)
Experiment with this simple configuration to determine the voltage and current (and VAR) limitations of your capacitors and inductors.
(too much voltage will destroy capacitors, too much current will saturate the inductors)
and proceed from there.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Mon Aug 19 2019, 10:51PM
Have been meaning to get a light bulb, from the last time, the bill was abit high something got left off the list.
When you say 0V refence the IC driver is a H bridge, wouldn't that be the same. I took a measurement from points on the circuit, and what all the power supplies use as ground, didn't change the value much, should I connect a capacitor to ground and one output from the IC, it might stuff up the bootstrap part?
Can you explain the capacitor connected to series inductor and parrellel capacitor, can't vislise it.
Do plan on building a external bridge, just money is delaying it.
Plasma, Mon Aug 19 2019, 10:51PM
Have been meaning to get a light bulb, from the last time, the bill was abit high something got left off the list.
When you say 0V refence the IC driver is a H bridge, wouldn't that be the same. I took a measurement from points on the circuit, and what all the power supplies use as ground, didn't change the value much, should I connect a capacitor to ground and one output from the IC, it might stuff up the bootstrap part?
Can you explain the capacitor connected to series inductor and parrellel capacitor, can't vislise it.
Do plan on building a external bridge, just money is delaying it.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Aug 20 2019, 08:41PM
Found a halogen bulb from one of the scrap microwave ovens.
At resonance it is quite dim, moving away it lights up abit, then dims thought away. I'm guessing at resonance the tank stops a lot of current, when it moves away it allows more, but the series then become resistance, even further, the series dominates.
Plasma, Tue Aug 20 2019, 08:41PM
Found a halogen bulb from one of the scrap microwave ovens.
At resonance it is quite dim, moving away it lights up abit, then dims thought away. I'm guessing at resonance the tank stops a lot of current, when it moves away it allows more, but the series then become resistance, even further, the series dominates.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Conundrum, Fri Aug 23 2019, 04:49AM
What parts did you need??
Conundrum, Fri Aug 23 2019, 04:49AM
What parts did you need??
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sat Aug 24 2019, 04:27AM
It changes :) I can get what I need, just not all at once.
The bulb is 240V 180Ohm, connected along one it lights up around resonance, higher or lower it goes out, its a light red colour, I'm guessing 10V.
I think if I get a 12V bulb I can add resistance to get a ballpark of the voltages. Order one more stage, see if it brightens the bulb, otherwise back to square one. At least I know my DMM can't detect AC above 40khz.
Plasma, Sat Aug 24 2019, 04:27AM
It changes :) I can get what I need, just not all at once.
The bulb is 240V 180Ohm, connected along one it lights up around resonance, higher or lower it goes out, its a light red colour, I'm guessing 10V.
I think if I get a 12V bulb I can add resistance to get a ballpark of the voltages. Order one more stage, see if it brightens the bulb, otherwise back to square one. At least I know my DMM can't detect AC above 40khz.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Wed Aug 28 2019, 03:59AM
Making the series part uneven worked, connected from the right side as ground then measured to the top of all three tank circuit, makes the bulb light up the same. Just realized that the voltages are across the inductor or capacitor not across both. Its powered by 18V 200mA, I think most of the power makes it to the bulb?
I think this will be the way to go, and just increase the power supply up to 240V, connect the grounds to the left side double the brightness on the right side tank, but the other two were dimmer.
Plasma, Wed Aug 28 2019, 03:59AM
Making the series part uneven worked, connected from the right side as ground then measured to the top of all three tank circuit, makes the bulb light up the same. Just realized that the voltages are across the inductor or capacitor not across both. Its powered by 18V 200mA, I think most of the power makes it to the bulb?
I think this will be the way to go, and just increase the power supply up to 240V, connect the grounds to the left side double the brightness on the right side tank, but the other two were dimmer.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Fri Nov 08 2019, 09:59PM
Built a bridge with a Ne555 driving it at 45khz when tested by it self, with the bridge connected it reads 331khz at 2.8v, the 555 was 6.8vdc. No components gets hot and a 10ohm resistive load on the Ac cables drops the volts to 2.6vac.
Not sure why the frequency got screwed .
Done some testing, each stage increases in voltage and the circulated current increases. Its at 45.6khz with resonance at 49.5khz which might explain low increases, open circuit on the AC leads is 2.8v with the storage goes to 3.67v but has gone up to 6v for 1&5 thinking the bridge design isn't that good or stable.
Plasma, Fri Nov 08 2019, 09:59PM
Built a bridge with a Ne555 driving it at 45khz when tested by it self, with the bridge connected it reads 331khz at 2.8v, the 555 was 6.8vdc. No components gets hot and a 10ohm resistive load on the Ac cables drops the volts to 2.6vac.
Not sure why the frequency got screwed .
Done some testing, each stage increases in voltage and the circulated current increases. Its at 45.6khz with resonance at 49.5khz which might explain low increases, open circuit on the AC leads is 2.8v with the storage goes to 3.67v but has gone up to 6v for 1&5 thinking the bridge design isn't that good or stable.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Nov 12 2019, 02:30PM
I added some resistor's to the 555 to increase the frequency to 49.1khz, the open circuit voltage from the bridge is 3.5acv, measuring from the storage part ground to the top of all three tanks shows 3.3acv.
If the series parts were just capacitor or inductors, it would form a voltage divider , with capacitor plus inductor out of resonance forms a voltage divider, but when the frequency is close enough they see the same voltage level.
Desoldering one leg of a tank, and measuring the current gets 13mA, I'm guessing circulation current, or the current through one of the elements.
Got to workout why the bridge is powered by 18v 200mA supply, but the output is only 3.5v
Plasma, Tue Nov 12 2019, 02:30PM
I added some resistor's to the 555 to increase the frequency to 49.1khz, the open circuit voltage from the bridge is 3.5acv, measuring from the storage part ground to the top of all three tanks shows 3.3acv.
If the series parts were just capacitor or inductors, it would form a voltage divider , with capacitor plus inductor out of resonance forms a voltage divider, but when the frequency is close enough they see the same voltage level.
Desoldering one leg of a tank, and measuring the current gets 13mA, I'm guessing circulation current, or the current through one of the elements.
Got to workout why the bridge is powered by 18v 200mA supply, but the output is only 3.5v
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sun Nov 24 2019, 05:15AM
Built a H bridge like the one recommended by Suleiman's. Try it on a tank circuit with a bridge recifer, adjusting the frequency from 20-80khz the voltage stays about the we, but measuring Ac current, closer to resonance it draws 140mA but drops to 10mA at around 20khz. I didn't think it worked like that?
Check a series circuit the voltage is about 6V, but there is no current as high as MA at any frequency.
Plasma, Sun Nov 24 2019, 05:15AM
Built a H bridge like the one recommended by Suleiman's. Try it on a tank circuit with a bridge recifer, adjusting the frequency from 20-80khz the voltage stays about the we, but measuring Ac current, closer to resonance it draws 140mA but drops to 10mA at around 20khz. I didn't think it worked like that?
Check a series circuit the voltage is about 6V, but there is no current as high as MA at any frequency.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Mon Nov 25 2019, 03:05AM
Made a error in the last post, turning anti clockwise moves it away from resonance, increasing the current draw, and lower clockwise. The volts for the series circuit didn't change much.
With out any load the DMM measured between 200-300mA with 100mA between each P fet leg and 200mA for the Schmitt trigger makes 700mA about half of the power supply, might explain the 5V open circuit on the bridge.
Plasma, Mon Nov 25 2019, 03:05AM
Made a error in the last post, turning anti clockwise moves it away from resonance, increasing the current draw, and lower clockwise. The volts for the series circuit didn't change much.
With out any load the DMM measured between 200-300mA with 100mA between each P fet leg and 200mA for the Schmitt trigger makes 700mA about half of the power supply, might explain the 5V open circuit on the bridge.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Nov 26 2019, 04:02AM
These are some tests I did, I will duplicate them with a larger current supply ,it should help the series circuit, there's less of a voltage drop at 47khz, which I think will be more reliable than measuring the current to find resonance.
Measuring the line current at resonance got 14mA with about 3vac, the impence of the tank is 14^2/1 =196Rp
3Vac/196Rp =0.015mA
Circulation current
3vac/14Xl =200mA
With a Q of 14.
Connected a 1ohm resistor in series with the inductor, a measured the current across the resistor it was 7mA, if the DMM leads are 1 ohm it should be about right.
To get 5A will need 66V , the 5A is max for the inductor.
Plasma, Tue Nov 26 2019, 04:02AM
These are some tests I did, I will duplicate them with a larger current supply ,it should help the series circuit, there's less of a voltage drop at 47khz, which I think will be more reliable than measuring the current to find resonance.
Measuring the line current at resonance got 14mA with about 3vac, the impence of the tank is 14^2/1 =196Rp
3Vac/196Rp =0.015mA
Circulation current
3vac/14Xl =200mA
With a Q of 14.
Connected a 1ohm resistor in series with the inductor, a measured the current across the resistor it was 7mA, if the DMM leads are 1 ohm it should be about right.
To get 5A will need 66V , the 5A is max for the inductor.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Wed Nov 27 2019, 05:01PM
Changed the design from what I had, the series circuit was too high impendence. It now is a chain of bandpass filters, have just one tank the current drawn was between 17-130mA but mainly low values, after each stage added it still topped out at 130mA but they average high values.
Plasma, Wed Nov 27 2019, 05:01PM
Changed the design from what I had, the series circuit was too high impendence. It now is a chain of bandpass filters, have just one tank the current drawn was between 17-130mA but mainly low values, after each stage added it still topped out at 130mA but they average high values.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Thu Nov 28 2019, 11:49PM
Built a mini transformer from a 470uH choke, measuring the secondary shows 10.5DcV. Connected it up to both sides of the tank circuit showed max Volts of 5.88DcV, at 49khz, moving it up or down lowered the voltage to 1.9V. The transformer has all most doubled what I was getting with out it, but not sure what's wrong with the H bridge. The current from one wire of the secondary to the end resistor gets 2-4mA.
The transformer is about 1W at 49khz ,200mA^2*470uH.
Made another transformer and wired the primary in parrellel and wired the secondary in series, open circuit is 24V connected across the tank circuit, show 3.8V, not enough current handling, its dropping the output voltage.
Modified the H bridge, changed the pull up resistor to 210 ohms and removed the gate resistor I tested, I now get 7.9V across the tank circuit, but the output voltage of the transformer or bridge is the same, I think it supplies more current, well not waste it with the quicker turn on/off.
Plasma, Thu Nov 28 2019, 11:49PM
Built a mini transformer from a 470uH choke, measuring the secondary shows 10.5DcV. Connected it up to both sides of the tank circuit showed max Volts of 5.88DcV, at 49khz, moving it up or down lowered the voltage to 1.9V. The transformer has all most doubled what I was getting with out it, but not sure what's wrong with the H bridge. The current from one wire of the secondary to the end resistor gets 2-4mA.
The transformer is about 1W at 49khz ,200mA^2*470uH.
Made another transformer and wired the primary in parrellel and wired the secondary in series, open circuit is 24V connected across the tank circuit, show 3.8V, not enough current handling, its dropping the output voltage.
Modified the H bridge, changed the pull up resistor to 210 ohms and removed the gate resistor I tested, I now get 7.9V across the tank circuit, but the output voltage of the transformer or bridge is the same, I think it supplies more current, well not waste it with the quicker turn on/off.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sun Dec 01 2019, 12:36PM
I've got 3 transformer which when the secondary were wired produced 7V out of 10. Each transformer makes about 10V. Having them in series and having 4 tanks made 5.7 V on the closest tank.
Adding a 5 tank drop it to 4.5V, as I moved along the tanks the voltage dropped by 0.1V, between 4-4.5V.
The open circuit voltage is about 32V, I've ordered another 4 chokes to make another 3 , and put them one parrellel with the other 3, to see if I can get the voltage on the closest tank of 15V, which should be enough to warm up the inductor.
I removed 3 tanks ,the remain two read 10.6V. Measured across the resistors with 2.8V, given 1:3.8 ratio, I'm guessing the tanks are 3.8 Z is the power lost to ESR . this is with 4 transformers with the secondary 2 series 2 parrellel.
The Q seems to workout to 14.6/3.8 = 3.8
Plasma, Sun Dec 01 2019, 12:36PM
I've got 3 transformer which when the secondary were wired produced 7V out of 10. Each transformer makes about 10V. Having them in series and having 4 tanks made 5.7 V on the closest tank.
Adding a 5 tank drop it to 4.5V, as I moved along the tanks the voltage dropped by 0.1V, between 4-4.5V.
The open circuit voltage is about 32V, I've ordered another 4 chokes to make another 3 , and put them one parrellel with the other 3, to see if I can get the voltage on the closest tank of 15V, which should be enough to warm up the inductor.
I removed 3 tanks ,the remain two read 10.6V. Measured across the resistors with 2.8V, given 1:3.8 ratio, I'm guessing the tanks are 3.8 Z is the power lost to ESR . this is with 4 transformers with the secondary 2 series 2 parrellel.
The Q seems to workout to 14.6/3.8 = 3.8
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Thu Dec 05 2019, 09:12PM
I brought a 12V 2.5A power supply, it increased the power raising the voltage. I'm testing a third stage with a little nickelchrome wire on the inductor leg, it warms up a little with 11V across the tanks. When the wire is properly connected the voltage drops across all the tanks, looks like its at resonance.
Be interesting to see how much heat it can make. Brought two more transfers but no matter the series parrellel combination it doesn't go above 11V for 3 tanks, 2 tanks is about 14V.
Plasma, Thu Dec 05 2019, 09:12PM
I brought a 12V 2.5A power supply, it increased the power raising the voltage. I'm testing a third stage with a little nickelchrome wire on the inductor leg, it warms up a little with 11V across the tanks. When the wire is properly connected the voltage drops across all the tanks, looks like its at resonance.
Be interesting to see how much heat it can make. Brought two more transfers but no matter the series parrellel combination it doesn't go above 11V for 3 tanks, 2 tanks is about 14V.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Fri Dec 06 2019, 05:57AM
The bridge had a failed open P fet, replaced it and are now getting 15V on the bridge leads.
I connected it directly without the transformers and the first 1 ohm resistor gets warm, with 3 tanks the nickelchrome warms slightly, having 1 tank, the nickelchrome gets to hot to touch., across the tanks is 6V with 3 .
There's 3ohm of resistor to the last tank making possible 2A.
Had to adjust the frequency ossiclator which someone hinted at, by removing the 1.2k fixed and just having the 5k pot, it makes it go from 2Mhz to 36khz.
At 50khz the line current was 1.2A measured on DC from the supply positive rail. If it devided equally between 3 tanks 0.4A.
Looking on wiki Nichrome page 28Awg at 204°C =1.18A
316°C = 1.55A
Guessing 100°C =0.81A and 50°C = 0.62A.
Out of the Line current there's the gate with 200mA and about 100mA for the Schmitt.
The 3 tanks from the furest is 25°C 0.44A, 50°C 0.62A , 100°C 0.81.
Its about 1.87A, the 1.2A line current was the max value, but the range from 0.2A to that. The Nickelchrome wire is 27ohms/meter the distance is 40mm
Just savings up for a 24V bridge, it will be pretty much the same design as this one.
Plasma, Fri Dec 06 2019, 05:57AM
The bridge had a failed open P fet, replaced it and are now getting 15V on the bridge leads.
I connected it directly without the transformers and the first 1 ohm resistor gets warm, with 3 tanks the nickelchrome warms slightly, having 1 tank, the nickelchrome gets to hot to touch., across the tanks is 6V with 3 .
There's 3ohm of resistor to the last tank making possible 2A.
Had to adjust the frequency ossiclator which someone hinted at, by removing the 1.2k fixed and just having the 5k pot, it makes it go from 2Mhz to 36khz.
At 50khz the line current was 1.2A measured on DC from the supply positive rail. If it devided equally between 3 tanks 0.4A.
Looking on wiki Nichrome page 28Awg at 204°C =1.18A
316°C = 1.55A
Guessing 100°C =0.81A and 50°C = 0.62A.
Out of the Line current there's the gate with 200mA and about 100mA for the Schmitt.
The 3 tanks from the furest is 25°C 0.44A, 50°C 0.62A , 100°C 0.81.
Its about 1.87A, the 1.2A line current was the max value, but the range from 0.2A to that. The Nickelchrome wire is 27ohms/meter the distance is 40mm
Just savings up for a 24V bridge, it will be pretty much the same design as this one.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Sun Dec 08 2019, 09:28PM
Wired up the below picture, the line current went up to 2.45A with 9.2V across the tanks. I added a filter cap to the bridge, and are running the oss and bridge on different power supply. Changed the Nickelchrome wire from 40mm to 20mm it drawed more line current, I think because the tanks are a sharper resonance. Stabilized the voltage and current but the frequency jumps +-2kV. At 100°C the 28Awg is 0.81 *4 3.24A.
The open circuit voltage was 15V. I think if I get a 24V 1.25A supply, it would regulated the current, but the wire should be the same temperature has 12V 2.5A.
Plasma, Sun Dec 08 2019, 09:28PM
Wired up the below picture, the line current went up to 2.45A with 9.2V across the tanks. I added a filter cap to the bridge, and are running the oss and bridge on different power supply. Changed the Nickelchrome wire from 40mm to 20mm it drawed more line current, I think because the tanks are a sharper resonance. Stabilized the voltage and current but the frequency jumps +-2kV. At 100°C the 28Awg is 0.81 *4 3.24A.
The open circuit voltage was 15V. I think if I get a 24V 1.25A supply, it would regulated the current, but the wire should be the same temperature has 12V 2.5A.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Mon Dec 09 2019, 10:33PM
Found a chart for Nichrome that relates colour to temperature. Having just 2 they glow slightly red, probably just 500°C
I measured the current with the probes either side of the Nickelchrome wire, I think its about 1ohm with the DMM about 1ohm internal. The reading was 0.6A which makes 1.2A, times two tanks would explain the 2.45A line current.
When lowering the frequency below resonance it doesn't have to go far to drop to zero current.
Plasma, Mon Dec 09 2019, 10:33PM
Found a chart for Nichrome that relates colour to temperature. Having just 2 they glow slightly red, probably just 500°C
I measured the current with the probes either side of the Nickelchrome wire, I think its about 1ohm with the DMM about 1ohm internal. The reading was 0.6A which makes 1.2A, times two tanks would explain the 2.45A line current.
When lowering the frequency below resonance it doesn't have to go far to drop to zero current.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Dec 17 2019, 07:36AM
Modified the test bridge, I've got the P MOSFETs on there own channel, and are driving the lower FETs directly from the oss. At 50khz it draws 1.3A with 18.8V across the tank. Across the Nichrome wire I get 0.29A.
Having this bridge setup seems to work better, I've still got one pull up resistor, but next week when I get the 24V supply will add another 212ohms. Funny thing the bridge open circuit shows 40V, I don't understand how it got that high.
The 50khz set on the pot is about 1/3rd compared to posts early, also just arrived is new parts to make the oss and bridge, will just do some more mucking around with the first prototype.
Plasma, Tue Dec 17 2019, 07:36AM
Modified the test bridge, I've got the P MOSFETs on there own channel, and are driving the lower FETs directly from the oss. At 50khz it draws 1.3A with 18.8V across the tank. Across the Nichrome wire I get 0.29A.
Having this bridge setup seems to work better, I've still got one pull up resistor, but next week when I get the 24V supply will add another 212ohms. Funny thing the bridge open circuit shows 40V, I don't understand how it got that high.
The 50khz set on the pot is about 1/3rd compared to posts early, also just arrived is new parts to make the oss and bridge, will just do some more mucking around with the first prototype.
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Fri Dec 20 2019, 08:17PM
Tested with 24V supply. I get 26.8V across the tank and 9.1V across the wire, if the wire is 1 ohm it makes the inductor 3 ohms at 50khz. The reactance at 50khz is 14ohm, with two tanks in parrellel leaving 7 ohm.
The wire got hotter than 12V supply when the 12V supply was working probly.
The line current is 1.3A at 50khz but decrease to 0.7A around 130khz?
The voltage are probably off by they will all be off the same amount, getting 69V open circuit if that's peak to peak times 1.8?
Changed one tank from 47uH and 220nF to 470uH and 22nF. The voltage across the tank was 49.2V ,across the wire 7.7V making 6 ohms, the other one the original 49.4V and 17.5V. Making 3 ohms.
The original wire heated up a lot more as more power got divided to it. Its a juggle at the moment between line current and through the inductor.
Line current 0.82A
With two tanks the larger inpendence I measure 94.5V across the tank and 0.75 line current, the wire is just warm.
25V supply / 36(6*6) = 0.69(0.75 - 0.056 gat) line current.
25V supply / 6= 4.1A circulation current
Plasma, Fri Dec 20 2019, 08:17PM
Tested with 24V supply. I get 26.8V across the tank and 9.1V across the wire, if the wire is 1 ohm it makes the inductor 3 ohms at 50khz. The reactance at 50khz is 14ohm, with two tanks in parrellel leaving 7 ohm.
The wire got hotter than 12V supply when the 12V supply was working probly.
The line current is 1.3A at 50khz but decrease to 0.7A around 130khz?
The voltage are probably off by they will all be off the same amount, getting 69V open circuit if that's peak to peak times 1.8?
Changed one tank from 47uH and 220nF to 470uH and 22nF. The voltage across the tank was 49.2V ,across the wire 7.7V making 6 ohms, the other one the original 49.4V and 17.5V. Making 3 ohms.
The original wire heated up a lot more as more power got divided to it. Its a juggle at the moment between line current and through the inductor.
Line current 0.82A
With two tanks the larger inpendence I measure 94.5V across the tank and 0.75 line current, the wire is just warm.
25V supply / 36(6*6) = 0.69(0.75 - 0.056 gat) line current.
25V supply / 6= 4.1A circulation current
Re: resonance energy storage experiment
Plasma, Tue Dec 24 2019, 02:39AM
The current from the supply is 0.275A, the tank 92.2V and wire 23V , makes 4 ohm, with two tanks 0.113mA making 440mV.
Tested with 36V 79.6V and 16V with 1.2A line current, I'm guessing but the bridge is fried, the wires are hotter, but with the line current been more, will test tomorrow.
The supply was shorting the oss, when separate the line current was 0.65A at its lowest, lowering the frequency to 48khz the wire was to hot to touch, I should be able to test 48V supply when I get another adaptor, but one of the MOSFET gets quite hot after awhile.
Put a third tank on, the supply current went up to 0.807A with the wire dropping a little in temperature.
Having the third tank made strange results, one MOSFET got hot, when put back to two was normal again, but with three the wires were roosting. I think some strange resonance thing was happen as I've had 2.45A through the bridge and it didn't get that hot.
Just spec out 68V 3A supply from two 24Vac transformer and ripple caps.
Plasma, Tue Dec 24 2019, 02:39AM
The current from the supply is 0.275A, the tank 92.2V and wire 23V , makes 4 ohm, with two tanks 0.113mA making 440mV.
Tested with 36V 79.6V and 16V with 1.2A line current, I'm guessing but the bridge is fried, the wires are hotter, but with the line current been more, will test tomorrow.
The supply was shorting the oss, when separate the line current was 0.65A at its lowest, lowering the frequency to 48khz the wire was to hot to touch, I should be able to test 48V supply when I get another adaptor, but one of the MOSFET gets quite hot after awhile.
Put a third tank on, the supply current went up to 0.807A with the wire dropping a little in temperature.
Having the third tank made strange results, one MOSFET got hot, when put back to two was normal again, but with three the wires were roosting. I think some strange resonance thing was happen as I've had 2.45A through the bridge and it didn't get that hot.
Just spec out 68V 3A supply from two 24Vac transformer and ripple caps.
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