<OT> Freedom of speech vs: The Internet's Dark Side / General Chatting / Forums

Forums

4hv.org :: Forums :: General Chatting

« Previous topic | Next topic »

<OT> Freedom of speech vs: The Internet's Dark Side

first previous 3 4 5 6 next last

Move Thread

LAN_403

Proud Mary

Fri Oct 15 2010, 07:51AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Grenadier wrote ...

Also about the instantly shut down thing... Yeah that's not true. There are hundreds of pyrotechnics websites and forums that don't get "shut down". There are even websites that explain how to make meth that have been up for nearly 10 years. So long as you're not selling or trading precursors to explosive or controlled compounds, or planning murders there isn't anything anyone can do to you. Rotteneggs, totse, and even e-how have guides on making bombs from cold packs and sparklers. Nothing "they" can do.

That may well be true in the United States for ought I know, but in the UK, a man was imprisoned for downloading a 'terror manual' from an open access US Government website, and other downloaders of literature relating to explosives have also found themselves accused of having a 'library of terror' (sic) and prosecuted under the disgraced Blair regime's catch-all and already much discredited 'terror laws.'

Judicial and criminal processes throughout the world are not all modelled on those of the United States!

Adam Munich

Fri Oct 15 2010, 10:26AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

Wow, that's one more reason to never move to the UK in my book.

Let's see...
No guns.
Big brother watches you.
God forbid you have a laser.
Bumraped for discussing pyrotechnics online

ScotchTapeLord

Fri Oct 15 2010, 11:43AM

Registered Member #1875 Joined: Sun Dec 21 2008, 06:36PM
Location:
Posts: 635

I agree that from an American point of view that is very scary stuff. I can also see how that would affect non-USA people's views on matters like this. I'm sure most Americans wouldn't mind seeing a few sites (like this one...) removed from existence, but as for you guys on the other side, take away fringe sites and it's just another step closer to total fascist government control. :P

Adam Munich

Fri Oct 15 2010, 08:06PM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

"I'm sure most Americans wouldn't mind seeing a few sites (like this one...) removed from existence"

I wouldn't want this site gone, and neither would anyone else here, save for a few feminazis concerned that their child "is doing dangerous things with electricity"

Most Americans are 100% against censorship. Especially internet censorship. Someone offed themselves due to an internet forum? Well they had some issues to begin with. Sure there are some people who say "we should stop all this cyberbulling", but most people just ignore them, and for good reason. People who don't get bullied turn out to be softies, and if any opposition comes their way later on in life they don't know how to handle it.

I must admit though I am saddened at what the world is becoming. Take schools for example. The other day I was told a story on how a kid was suspended for 5 days, because in the back of his truck was some orange juice, a bagel, some butter, and OH NOES a BUTTERKNIFE!!! HES GOING TO STAB EVERYONE!!!

40 years ago, if a child showed a science teacher his new pocket knife, the teacher would pull out his and they would compare the features. Everyone lives happily ever after.
Now, the school is put on lock down, the kid is sent to the office, his knife is taken and the police are called. The child is expelled from school, sent to a bad boy school and receives "counseling" for the rest of his life. Nobody will hire him because he threatened his teacher with a weapon, so he turns to a life of crime and is mowed down by cops in the street a year later.

30 years ago by school had a boxing ring in the basement. If anyone was in argument, they received a pair of gloves and beat the sh*t out of each other. Now god forbid that someone punches someone on or off school property. The two kids duke it out in a Walmart parking lot, and both are suspended from school for 5 days.

Freshman Friday used to be a ritual in the olden days. Cram a freshman in a garbage can and roll them down a hill. Now if you so much as make a chalk mark on a Freshman you get your *ss handed to you.

Gym class.
Did you know it's illegal in my state to allow kids to pick they're own teams? It hurts fatty's feelings.
Did you know dodge ball is illegal?
Did you know baseball is illegal?
Did you know tackle football is illegal in gym class?
Did you know that you can't bring your own bow to archery club?
'Nuff said.

I read an article in the newspaper today on how kids are getting bullied in lunch. Apparently stealing some french fries gets you in deep sh*t. Are you kidding me?

Years ago (5th grade) I was designing an HHO torch that was powered off the sun and a car battery to allow for cutting metal in the desert. Guess who got suspended 3 days for deigning a thermonuclear hydrogen bomb.

What happened to playgrounds? I see all these plastic things that are supposed to be "fun". Slides are either under 10 feet at a 30* angle with friction-y plastic, or tall "curly slides" you need to push yourself down. There is no incentive to climb the ladder to go down that! I know of a few parks with metal playgrounds and 60* 20 foot tall slides. I've also noticed something: kids at those parks are a lot less fat. Also those merry go round things are never built anymore, and I don't ever remember seeing a new see-saw. Instead you have things like tic tac toe games and steering wheels. Those are loads of fun.

ScotchTapeLord

Fri Oct 15 2010, 10:39PM

Registered Member #1875 Joined: Sun Dec 21 2008, 06:36PM
Location:
Posts: 635

Of course we wouldn't want this site taken down. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with my life if that were to happen! I'm just saying that if sites like this were to just disappear, there wouldn't be much public outrage (apart from us) (I think).

And I agree with Grenadier on the other stuff, too.
I went to a small private school, so they weren't quite as strict with discipline and regulation. I got away with testing an ignition in the middle of English class (granted, it was a substitute teacher in charge of us watching a movie).

I think that internet censorship would indeed be yet another way of softening the next generation, both in body and mind, just like all the other regulation that Grenadier pointed out.

IntraWinding

Sat Oct 16 2010, 12:47AM

Registered Member #2261 Joined: Mon Aug 03 2009, 01:19AM
Location: London, UK
Posts: 581

Proud Mary wrote ...

Here

But I think police relented on those types of 'over enthusiastic policing' cases. School kids download that sort of stuff 'cos it's kewl. I think I remember some judge made it clear to the police eventually that they needed more than just possession of dodgy manuals to prosecute someone as a terrorist.

That was really bad, but this in the US is even worse: you can get arrested for literally nothing just so cops can hit their arrest target numbers. 'This American Life' is a great radio program and the last part of this edition tells the story of a cop who always carried a tape recorder in his pocket so when the boss cop had him committed to an insane asylum to discredit his evidence against them, he got the lot on tape!!! Without that he would have been totally f***ed. It's sounds like the script from a thriller, but it's real!

Don't miss this other show from 2006, Habeas Schmabeas

and many others.

Adam Munich

Sat Oct 16 2010, 06:17AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

That isn't necessarily limited to the USA. The cops that do that are simply *ssholes, and every country has *ssholes. You just have to be the lucky one that they pick. Police brutality is spread out over a wide spectrum; from just being a dick to chokeslaming an 84 year old man. And don't tell me there's no police brutality in your country.

Oh, and tasers aren't making the situation any better either. Maybe we should wear tinfoil under our sweaters.

Chris Russell

Sat Oct 16 2010, 09:16AM

... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052

ScotchTapeLord wrote ...

Of course we wouldn't want this site taken down. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with my life if that were to happen! I'm just saying that if sites like this were to just disappear, there wouldn't be much public outrage (apart from us) (I think).

I think it would depend on how the site is shut down. Keep in mind that the people who seek to control access to information are very clever. It's possible, but not likely, that a bunch of jackbooted thugs could beat in my door and confiscate my server in the name of some obscure corner of some anti-terrorism regulation. It's not something I worry about.

Much more likely is that some kid gets injured or worse while playing with high voltage, and in the aftermath, 4hv.org is branded as a site that encourages dangerous behavior. If litigation follows, it could be difficult to keep the site up and running. Every single user on this site had to agree to be responsible for his or her own safety, and there's a huge emphasis here on safety, so I'm sure I could eventually prevail in such a case, but it would still be a rather large bump in the road. Were 4hv.org to shut down in such a situation, I don't think too many members of the panic-stricken general public would be upset.

ScotchTapeLord wrote ...

And I agree with Grenadier on the other stuff, too.
I went to a small private school, so they weren't quite as strict with discipline and regulation. I got away with testing an ignition in the middle of English class (granted, it was a substitute teacher in charge of us watching a movie).

I think that internet censorship would indeed be yet another way of softening the next generation, both in body and mind, just like all the other regulation that Grenadier pointed out.

I agree and disagree. I disagree in that I do think bullying is a problem that is worth tackling. Most people toughen up under bullying, it's true. Some don't. A few implode under bullying, and decide to gun down their tormentors and anyone else who happens to be around. I doubt the world, or the US in particular, would be a better place if we taught kids that disagreements are solved by beating the tar out of one another. Nobody needs to be put in a garbage can and rolled down a hill as a rite of passage, and nobody should be taught to accept physical or verbal abuse as a normal part of everyday life.

That said, any sensible approach to fixing the problem with bullying must acknowledge that it is going to happen. Children not only need to learn how to stop bullying, but how to deal with it in a reasonable manner when it does happen. Intervention by adults and anti-bullying rules can only go so far. Children need to acquire the mental, social, and physical tools necessary to deal with adversity like bullying, so they will be prepared for adversity in later life. Attempting to shelter children from any sort of adversity will only lead to trouble down the road.

Grenadier wrote ...
The cops that do that are simply *ssholes, and every country has *ssholes. You just have to be the lucky one that they pick. Police brutality is spread out over a wide spectrum; from just being a dick to chokeslaming an 84 year old man.

A good example of real-life bullying that people need to be prepared to deal with.

Grenadier wrote ...
Oh, and tasers aren't making the situation any better either. Maybe we should wear tinfoil under our sweaters.

Tasers would be quite helpful, if they were used in a manner consistent with their design; as a less-lethal alternative to a firearm. However, both in the US and abroad, police practice a technique known as "pain compliance," sometimes under rather dubious circumstances. At some point, the taser became generally acceptable to use during the application of pain compliance, along with pepper spray. In the case of the former, a potentially lethal jolt of electricity seems several rungs up the ladder too high for being nonviolently uncooperative -- it's just the high-tech version of a billy club to the back of the head. In the case of the latter, it's hard to imagine how a faceful of burning agony is supposed to make anyone willing to comply with any order that doesn't involve jumping in the nearest lake. Both seem stunningly barbaric to use on a person who is not violently resisting a lawful order.

Proud Mary

Sat Oct 16 2010, 10:57AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

There have been a number of 'library of terror' internet cases in the UK, mostly famously that of Samina Malik, a 22 year old shop assistant, who had written a poem called How to Behead, which formed the centre of the prosecution case.

Asked in court why she had changed her online user name from Lyrical Babe to Lyrical Terrorist, Ms Malik said: â€œIt was only because it was a cool name. It doesnâ€™t mean Iâ€™m a terrorist. It is just a user name.â€

She was sentenced to nine months imprisonment, but was subsequently acquitted after a public outcry and a successful appeal.

Most 'library of terror' cases have revolved around material downloaded from the internet, particluarly recipes for making explosives, technical weapons manuals, military training manuals, and so on.

To succeed, the prosecution need only demonstrate that the downloaded material is "likely to be useful for terrorism," - which can include almost anything.

Carbon_Rod

Sun Oct 17 2010, 05:06AM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

Interesting,
almost every engineer, physicist, or chemist I meet...
had almost certainly done some sort of pyrotechnics as a kid.

I can't imagine how boring childhood would be without a 308 at the range, DIY rockets, chemistry sets that don't suck, real electronic project kits, or Lasers.

It seems people are becoming more ignorant about science, and fear based rhetoric easily overpowers common(er) sense.

I still hope to buy real Lawn-Darts for my own kids someday...
;-P

first previous 3 4 5 6 next last

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob