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Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Before the Second World War, it was common for scientists to work from home. Barnes Wallis, the airship designer, and later inventor of the famous 'Dam Busters' bouncing bomb, had a home laboratory, and there were many others like him.
Einstein was a patents' clerk when he first thought up his theory of relativity, and is noted for saying in later life that the days when a science outsider could expect unusual theories to receive a fair hearing were now, to his regret, over.
Since the War, we have seen the rise of institutional science, and the often oppressive peer review system, which has given life to the view that the only real science is corporate or institutional science, and that outside this are only frauds, fantasists, and aspiring terrorists - people from whom the public should be protected.
With the ascent of the institution goes a new secret language (SL) designed to keep outsiders out - for example, the bizarre and unnecessary fad for initialising (UFFI) now seen in many journal entries (JE).
The idea of pursuing knowledge for its own sake now seems quaint, even, at times, Victorian.
Registered Member #30
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
William Monk wrote ... He says that 20 years ago he used to teach a physics class by going down to the local junkyard, bringing in a pile of old electronics, or whatever else he could find, and telling the class to build things.
Yeah! What a role model. We need more teachers like that, that would fix the problem.
I've done some work as a university lab assistant, and lately as a glorified lab assistant with the job title of "Occasional Lecturer", and I hate to say it but my experience pretty much agrees with what William Monk, MinorityCarrier etc. said.
Another thing is that my employer actually prides itself on being a "non-elitist" university. If ever there was a contradiction in terms, there it is! I think that's another problem that needs tackled. Science is basically a meritocracy: the more brains you have, the further you'll get. That makes it fundamentally elitist. But for some messed-up reason it's not cool to be outstanding just now, except maybe in sport. It seems that the goal of education is to make everyone mediocre. If people had more respect for excellence, then they would have more respect for science, both professional and amateur.
Another thing to ponder: Why make the distinction between "amateur" science and other science? The good guys mostly started out as amateurs. I remember reading about an engineer whose boss was going to a graduate fair, and asked the engineer for advice on hiring graduates. He said, "Hire anyone who has his own oscilloscope."
The boss wasn't too happy, as he had never owned one. So there's another suggestion, more managers with oscilloscopes.
It's a sobering thought that maybe science was only taught in America to help win the Cold War. Maybe now the Soviet Union has collapsed, they're not going to bother teaching it any more.
Registered Member #1451
Joined: Wed Apr 23 2008, 03:48AM
Location: Boulder, Co
Posts: 661
As for the "all the low hanging fruit has been picked" argument... I'm not trying to brag but I improved a NASA thruster design by adding a pretty simple concept. I then found that Air Force engineers had the same Idea as I did but only a year later, and they way over thought it and are moving in the opposite direction. The method they used didn't come close in terms of results as mine did, and theirs was much more "advanced." Goes to show that the companies with an amazing amount of funding can sometimes over design things and make them overly complicated without accomplishing what they wanted.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
wrote ...
Another thing to ponder: Why make the distinction between "amateur" science and other science? The good guys mostly started out as amateurs. I remember reading about an engineer whose boss was going to a graduate fair, and asked the engineer for advice on hiring graduates. He said, "Hire anyone who has his own oscilloscope."
Thats a good point. In fact, i do quite a bit of interviewing new candidates where I work. I only recommend candidates for hire if they themselves tinker at home and do their own electronic hobbies. I see so many new graduates coming from MIT, Yale, and so forth who aren't worth two shits when it comes to real engineering. I want to see real practical engineering candidates.
My buddy, who is an ME functional manager always starts with the same question when he interviews. "So, have you ever swapped the engine on your car?"
Of course, whats really said is that all new hires these days are forced right into program management without having any technical experience whatsoever.
Registered Member #2261
Joined: Mon Aug 03 2009, 01:19AM
Location: London, UK
Posts: 581
I don't know if this is the suitable, but during WWII lots of of amateur telescope makers in the UK used their mirror and lens making skills for the large scale production of optics for things like gun sights. I think you can find stories out there of people completing their first tray full of prisms for example and the rejection rate being smaller than from commercial sources.
Don't forget James Lovelock, although he's called an 'independent' rather than 'amateur' scientist.
Registered Member #99
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637
EastVoltResearch wrote ...
wrote ...
Another thing to ponder: Why make the distinction between "amateur" science and other science? The good guys mostly started out as amateurs. I remember reading about an engineer whose boss was going to a graduate fair, and asked the engineer for advice on hiring graduates. He said, "Hire anyone who has his own oscilloscope."
Thats a good point. In fact, i do quite a bit of interviewing new candidates where I work. I only recommend candidates for hire if they themselves tinker at home and do their own electronic hobbies. I see so many new graduates coming from MIT, Yale, and so forth who aren't worth two shits when it comes to real engineering. I want to see real practical engineering candidates.
My buddy, who is an ME functional manager always starts with the same question when he interviews. "So, have you ever swapped the engine on your car?"
Of course, whats really said is that all new hires these days are forced right into program management without having any technical experience whatsoever.
We need more role models like the teacher mentioned earlier and more people like Dan to give us students who are "different" a chance! Id LOVE to get interviewed by someone who gives a crap about my "stuff"! NO ONE gives me a second thought where I live. I apply for each research opportunity that I find out about at my school and NEVER hear back! The kids with better grades (but have no idea what a tesla coil is) get hired! Funny thing is, is that I FAILED math over and over again, yet ACED ALL my circuits classes + labs! (after I made it through my maths, finally) While the kids that aced math STRUGGLED through those circuits classes while asking me to help them for every step of the way there!
No one wants to build anything. No one wants to tinker. People think Im nuts when I try to show them a youtube video of a project. Little interest in tinkering despite these kids MAJORING in EE?!
Registered Member #1497
Joined: Thu May 22 2008, 05:24AM
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 801
EEYORE wrote ...
EastVoltResearch wrote ...
wrote ...
Another thing to ponder: Why make the distinction between "amateur" science and other science? The good guys mostly started out as amateurs. I remember reading about an engineer whose boss was going to a graduate fair, and asked the engineer for advice on hiring graduates. He said, "Hire anyone who has his own oscilloscope."
Thats a good point. In fact, i do quite a bit of interviewing new candidates where I work. I only recommend candidates for hire if they themselves tinker at home and do their own electronic hobbies. I see so many new graduates coming from MIT, Yale, and so forth who aren't worth two shits when it comes to real engineering. I want to see real practical engineering candidates.
My buddy, who is an ME functional manager always starts with the same question when he interviews. "So, have you ever swapped the engine on your car?"
Of course, whats really said is that all new hires these days are forced right into program management without having any technical experience whatsoever.
We need more role models like the teacher mentioned earlier and more people like Dan to give us students who are "different" a chance! Id LOVE to get interviewed by someone who gives a crap about my "stuff"! NO ONE gives me a second thought where I live. I apply for each research opportunity that I find out about at my school and NEVER hear back! The kids with better grades (but have no idea what a tesla coil is) get hired! Funny thing is, is that I FAILED math over and over again, yet ACED ALL my circuits classes + labs! (after I made it through my maths, finally) While the kids that aced math STRUGGLED through those circuits classes while asking me to help them for every step of the way there!
No one wants to build anything. No one wants to tinker. People think Im nuts when I try to show them a youtube video of a project. Little interest in tinkering despite these kids MAJORING in EE?!
Matt
Not to further derail, but research opportunities pick the students with the best grades for 2 reasons: 1. Low risk - if he has good grades, less chance of the student failing and wasting your time and money 2. Higher chance of getting the research grants. In Canada, you need really good grades to get NSERC grants, even though you may have the knowledge to work in their lab, if you don't have the grades for the grant and the professor doesn't have money just sitting around, he won't take you on even if he wants to.
As for the distinction between amateur and independent scientists, I think amateurs don't really end up publishing, and experiment for the love of it, while independent scientists may have specific goals in mind, want to publish, etc.
Keep the thread going guys, I want to see more examples of what society has done to amateur scientists and some more of the benefits of having us around. Anything about science education?
Registered Member #99
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637
As for science education, I would suggest people target children when young with science. When I was 8, I was just a creative kid that liked to draw and cut paper. Then one day some science people came to my school and had my class play with batteries and light bulbs. After that day, I was hooked!
If kids are introduced to hands on science, I bet they will wind up with the attitude needed for constructive progress regarding amateur science rather than hysteria thats getting our passion banned.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
EEYORE wrote ...
EastVoltResearch wrote ...
wrote ...
Another thing to ponder: Why make the distinction between "amateur" science and other science? The good guys mostly started out as amateurs. I remember reading about an engineer whose boss was going to a graduate fair, and asked the engineer for advice on hiring graduates. He said, "Hire anyone who has his own oscilloscope."
Thats a good point. In fact, i do quite a bit of interviewing new candidates where I work. I only recommend candidates for hire if they themselves tinker at home and do their own electronic hobbies. I see so many new graduates coming from MIT, Yale, and so forth who aren't worth two shits when it comes to real engineering. I want to see real practical engineering candidates.
My buddy, who is an ME functional manager always starts with the same question when he interviews. "So, have you ever swapped the engine on your car?"
Of course, whats really said is that all new hires these days are forced right into program management without having any technical experience whatsoever.
We need more role models like the teacher mentioned earlier and more people like Dan to give us students who are "different" a chance! Id LOVE to get interviewed by someone who gives a crap about my "stuff"! NO ONE gives me a second thought where I live. I apply for each research opportunity that I find out about at my school and NEVER hear back! The kids with better grades (but have no idea what a tesla coil is) get hired! Funny thing is, is that I FAILED math over and over again, yet ACED ALL my circuits classes + labs! (after I made it through my maths, finally) While the kids that aced math STRUGGLED through those circuits classes while asking me to help them for every step of the way there!
No one wants to build anything. No one wants to tinker. People think Im nuts when I try to show them a youtube video of a project. Little interest in tinkering despite these kids MAJORING in EE?!
Matt
It most likely depends on who interviews you. If its Human Resources, the only thing they really care about is your school and your grades. They really don't have a clue. A seasoned engineer will really appreciate your hobby and other interests and truly appreciate what you'll be able to bring to the table.
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Don't like the state of society's view of amateur science? Now is the time to speak up!
I apply for each research opportunity that I find out about at my school and NEVER hear back! The kids with better grades (but have no idea what a tesla coil is) get hired! Funny thing is, is that I FAILED math over and over again, yet ACED ALL my circuits classes + labs! (after I made it through my maths, finally) While the kids that aced math STRUGGLED through those circuits classes while asking me to help them for every step of the way there!