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Don't like the state of society's view of amateur science? Now is the time to speak up!

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aonomus

Sat Apr 17 2010, 06:58AM

Registered Member #1497 Joined: Thu May 22 2008, 05:24AM
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 801

I am personally sick and tired of how the uneducated in society view our interest, and other similar interests negatively. I am seeking to change people's view of amateur science and place us in a better position for change.

I'm currently writing an article about how protectionism is damaging society by creating the negative stigma of electronics, chemistry, and amateur science in general being overly dangerous to others or themselves, justifying blanket bans on everything. Before we reach the state of foam-padded pink and blue rooms where everyone is safe, we need to speak up.

And before anyone replies, if you have anything negative to post, don't reply at all. I'm looking for *positive* comments to promote our interest, not make us look like sarcastic geeks on the internet.

So what am I asking for? Help.
Give me some examples that fall into these categories, or make suggestions as to what topics should be covered. While examples in chemistry are good, anything that falls into the realm of what society views as 'bad' (ie: chem/electronics being viewed narrowly as drugs, bombs, or terrorism) but have positive applications in every day life are also useful.

Better yet, write your own articles! I have enough contacts built up that I should be able to saturate the blogosphere and put the topic up on the radar for the mainstream media, but in order for this to work, a lot more people need to speak up at the same time. If you're interested in writing your own articles, please PM me.

So, onto the categories of what I'm looking for:

1. Examples of how amateur science has positively benefited society: discoveries, inventions, etc. How did they come about, what was its impact on society?

2. Counter arguements to 'all the low hanging fruit having been picked' - the concept that all science belongs in university labs or multinational funded pharma companies.

3. The potential cost of abandoning science as a result of creating the fear culture behind anything dangerous.

4. Examples of society persecuting amateur scientists. Please reference news articles and give a brief summary - make sure that the person/people in question were doing everything above-board and were truly not up to anything illegal.

5. Examples of how amateur scientists currently benefit society, and examples of how amateur scientists could collaborate with the community to further benefit society.

6. Examples of how incremental bans and restrictions yielded no positive benefit to society but only ended up increasing the bureaucracy and harming others with legitimate business.

I'm really going out on a limb here, and I hope people don't laugh at me for my slight naivety, but I have some faith that with enough work we can put amateur science back into a positive light in society.

Conundrum

Sat Apr 17 2010, 07:07AM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4061

Hmm..
Case in point, the pointless restrictions on previously legal chemicals for "industrial" use that bankrupted at least one company making customised event cards.

Another example, the Battery Directive. Needless to say the companies making electric bikes are up in arms over this, so are a lot of people who recycle cells from dewalt drill packs as they now need to register/pay mucho $$ for "approved disposal" etc.

Then there's the whole laser "pointer" ban that covers anything that even looks like a laser, even in some cases leading to harmless green LED keyrings being confiscated and Ebay removing auctions for laser diodes etc.

Seems that even dumpster diving is being treated harshly, someone over in the UK got nailed recently for removing a printer from a skip, even though they had "permission" and it was on a public road the company claimed that the printer was their property. Â£600+ fine and no hope of getting more than the minimum wage for ten years or so.

I ran into the OMGWTF effect when trying to get a vacuum pump, I even got asked by someone in authority just what did I need it for? Not least that it was from *my* car, which *I* legally own and can do whatever to as long as it is road legal.

-A

EEYORE

Sat Apr 17 2010, 07:49AM

Registered Member #99 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637

The problem is lack of education. People fear what they cannot understand. Its that simple. There are no arguments that are going to change someone's mind either. I have dealt with this much of my life and can tell you that there are no arguments to make. You cant argue with uneducated people.

There is also a much greater reason for governments placing bans on anything of interest to us educated people, but that is niether here nor there.

Best bet is to fly under the raydar. Ive had homeland security called on me for my "antics". (No charges brought against me,

) This happened despite me explaing to apartment managers what I was up to. (A vacuum tube was thought to be a container of nerve gas)

People just dont know what things are. They never learned about them in school, nor had any interest in anything but conforming to a very boring way of life.

To make this post more constructive, id say to entertain people with your experiements. Nothing like having drunk emo kids clap their hands to a large tesla coil rather than call the cops. (Old roommates friends grew suspicious of my tinkering).

It would take something with power and influence to put amateur science back into the mainstream. Back in the 50's, it was all about radios and whatnot and the goverment was totally on board. (Or this is what I hear from my dad and others who were kids back then). People do what they are told to do and think what they are told to think. Its sad, but its true. I could just see you trying to get my little brothers to read articles on why what we like to do is harmless and cool. (Let alone get them to read ANYTHING that wasnt sent to them via text).

Matt

Proud Mary

Sat Apr 17 2010, 08:27AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

I just cribbed this from the amateur astronomy wikipedia entry:

* George Alcock, discoverer of comets and novae.
* Thomas Bopp, shared the discovery of Comet Hale-Bopp in 1995 with unemployed PhD physicist Alan Hale.
* Robert Burnham, Jr., author of the Celestial Handbook.
* Andrew Ainslie Common (1841 â€“ 1903), built his own very large reflecting telescopes and demonstrated that photography could record astronomical features invisible to the human eye.
* Robert E. Cox (1917â€“1989) who conducted the "Gleanings for ATMs" column in Sky and Telescope magazine for 21 years.
* John Dobson (1915), whose name is associated with the Dobsonian telescope, a simplified design for Newtonian reflecting telescopes.
* Robert Owen Evans is a minister of the Uniting Church in Australia and an amateur astronomer who holds the all-time record for visual discoveries of supernovae.
* Clinton B. Ford (1913â€“1992), who specialized in the observation of variable stars.
* Will Hay, the famous comedian and actor, who discovered a white spot on Saturn.
* Walter Scott Houston (1912â€“1993) who wrote the "Deep-Sky Wonders" column in Sky & Telescope magazine for almost 50 years.
* Albert G. Ingalls (1888â€“1958), editor of Amateur Telescope Making, Vols. 1-3 and "The Amateur Scientist". He and Russell Porter are generally credited with having initiated the amateur telescope making movement in the U. S.
* David H. Levy discovered or co-discovered 22 comets including Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, the most for any individual.
* Sir Patrick Moore, presenter of the BBC's long-running The Sky at Night and author of many books on astronomy.
* Leslie Peltier was a prolific discoverer of comets and well-known observer of variable stars.
* John M. Pierce (1886â€“1958) was one of the founders of the Springfield Telescope Makers. In the 1930s he published a series of 14 articles on telescope making in Hugo Gernsback's "Everyday Science and Mechanics" called "Hobbygraphs".
* Russell W. Porter founded Stellafane and has been referred to as the "founder"[1][2] or one of the "founders" of amateur telescope making."[3]
* Isaac Roberts, early experimenter in astronomical photography.
* Grote Reber (1911â€”2002), pioneer of radio astronomy constructing the first purpose built radio telescope and conducted the first sky survey in the radio frequency.

Steve Conner

Sat Apr 17 2010, 10:32AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

aonomus wrote ...

I am personally sick and tired of how the uneducated in society view our interest, and other similar interests negatively. I am seeking to change people's view of amateur science and place us in a better position for change.

They're just jealous because we can do cool tricks that they can't.

What kind of change do you want, exactly? This forum is already a force in promoting amateur science, and has been for many years. Just the other day I was zapping 500 junior high school kids with a Tesla coil in the name of promoting science, and nobody locked me up.

I think one great force for change would be if science geeks worked on their social skills. Everybody could be an ambassador. In science, you have absolute truth, things can be right and wrong, and that's independent of how they're presented. But to Joe Public there is no such thing, only charisma. Everything is spin, there's no substance in the scientific sense. Therefore, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you're nice about it, and your motives appear sound.

I see a lot of kids on the internet fixated on doing dangerous experiments. I groan every time I see a new member join up asking how to make fuming nitric acid, chlorates, a railgun or whatever. I have to ask myself what message these kids are wanting to send in a social context, through their actions. They say to themselves and everyone else that it's a scientific experiment, it's educational, but maybe their real motive is just the thrill of doing something dangerous and telling people about it.

And I would ask you, is that really science, and is it the kind of thing that should be promoted? By my earlier definition, these kids can't be ambassadors for science, because on some level, they don't want to be nice, and they want to give the impression of having motives that are unsound. They want the bad boy terrorist image, and that's the image we need rid of!

i don't think this should be considered some kind of nasty trolling. I've given a lot to the hobbyist community over the years, so you know that I'm basically on your side, or I wouldn't have bothered. I think my view deserves consideration and I'd like to hear honest debate on the question.

aonomus

Sat Apr 17 2010, 04:33PM

Registered Member #1497 Joined: Thu May 22 2008, 05:24AM
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 801

Not a troll, just a derail....

And to address the question and end it connor, if kids are taught to be responsible for their actions, then they wouldn't be up to antisocial activities that involve science.

I appreciate the desire for discussion but I'd like to keep this on-topic. Please curtail the pessimism about promoting change, this is exactly what I wanted to avoid.

Bjørn

Sat Apr 17 2010, 05:02PM

Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058

I agree completely with Steve. I would even push it a little further. There is no hope of of improving the standing of amateur science as long as Mythbusters is considered the pinnacle and the links to drugs, guns and explosives are so strong and real.

The reputation is pretty much deserved so changing it does not make much sense. For any improvement to make sense the real amateur scientsts need to clean up their act and distance themselves from the unpleasant sides of their hobbies instead of wallow in it. That is the only way they can be judged by what they are and not by what an immensely larger group of other people are.

Years ago there was hope that 4Hv could manage such a transition but it was fairly soon given up on. 4HV will always be big bangs and action before science and thought and the google loop will reinforce that until the end of time. 4HV does a lot of good work in keeping people from going too far off the line but I don't think it has a lot to offer to most amateur scientists.

William Monk

Sat Apr 17 2010, 05:56PM

Registered Member #2470 Joined: Tue Nov 17 2009, 05:47AM
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Posts: 43

When the government placed a ban on "dangerous" chemistry sets, kids stopped being interested in chemistry. I am a lab assistant in a high school chemistry class, and literally all the teachers do is tell the students to "read this section, answer these questions." They do about 3 real labs a year. You won't believe this, but they like to assign "virtual labs" where you open a program and simulate different reactions (titration etc). Students HATE these labs, not because they don't like computers, but because they want to do hands on labs. Any chemist knows that .1 M HCl won't hurt anyone, so why do they do such a simple lab as a titration on a computer? Because it's "dangerous," most administrators truly believe that labs have become more dangerous than they were 30 years ago.

I also believe that this concept holds true to many different topics. Aviation is a big one, 30 years ago, everyone was flying, there were airports everywhere. Now, all people can do is complain about airports, and eventually get them shut down. The exact same thing will happen to aviation as it did to chemistry if we don't tell all these people that they decided to buy a house right down the runway at van nuys airport. They bought their house at a discount, because of the noise of the airplanes, but they still complain.

I truly believe that public education is about to collapse as a whole. Standardized tests are the WORST thing that anyone could impose on students. Teachers are ONLY allowed to "teach to the test," and guess what? No questions on labs are on these tests, so they CANNOT teach labs. Every year, the standardized test scores are analyzed, and the average scores are computed for proficient, advanced etc. Every year, the school board wants more "advanced" scores, so the averages get lower and lower every year. as the averages get lower, the tests are made easier, and the teachers, who are only allowed to "teach to the test" have to spend much more time on very simple concepts.

i am currently in an Advanced Placement computer science class. At the end of the year, we have a standardized test on the concepts that they want us to have learned. ALL they want us to know is how to look at a piece of code, and understand what it does, sounds kinda reasonable, right? NO. All they want us to understand is basic loops, and control structure. Absolutely no user interface whatsoever. Guess how many days we have been on the computers this year (let's say 200 school days)? Less than 20 days. I came into this class very excited to learn more about programming than I already know. I know loathe going to class every day. All we do is read out of a "test prep" book everyday. Anyone that knows how to program in any language knows that the only way you get good at programming is to program. Modern education is quietly banning experimentation, and we have to do something about it.

One of my favorite people at the school is my sophomore AP chemistry teacher. He is an old guy that teaches because he loves doing it. He has a doctorate in nuclear physics. He says that 20 years ago he used to teach a physics class by going down to the local junkyard, bringing in a pile of old electronics, or whatever else he could find, and telling the class to build things. I think this is the best way that you could ever teach a physics class. He can't teach the class like this anymore, because it's now considered "dangerous, and and a waste of time." Standardized tests will ruin our young minds. It's only a matter of time, and that time is rapidly approaching.

We have a huge problem on our hands.
-William

MinorityCarrier

Sat Apr 17 2010, 06:12PM

Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312

My company has initiated a program to bring in high school students to tour our wafer fab to help spark an interest in science and engineering, but I think sparking an interest in science needs to start much earlier

Emphasizing the Scientific Method and scientific discipline in the school classroom starting in the first grade, with a strong science-friendly curriculum all the way through high school is what I believe will work. Thats what was done when I was growing up, and there was a whole lot more science kits, science hobbyists, science fairs, etc. then, than now. Some men walked on the moon as a result.

The current cultural need for instant gratification is the product of rampant commercial consumerism that pervades every moment of our waking lives, and is what fuels your irritation with "the uneducated in society". A change in culture and a slow steady hand in formal education should improve things somewhat, but then only after ~ten years. You have your work cut out for you arguing for that.

Hon1nbo

Sat Apr 17 2010, 06:17PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: North Texas
Posts: 1040

in Texas, it is illegal to own a beaker or other glassware without having it registered with the state or belonging to a school, as an "anti-drug" regulation

T can't find the article at the moment, though I'm sure it won't be that hard for you.

If you think about it, anyone running a drug lab would never register it with the state, and there is nothing stopping someone from buying beakers, so the only people it really effects are the legitimate hobbyists who now have to go through legal hoops to get basic glassware, and face charges if they do not.

In terms of amateur scientists as necessities to society as a whole, it is imperative that people understand that everyone in one of those labs started somewhere. It was amateur scientists who expanded many important features of the radio and TV (Ham Radio Operators); a start-up group of Rocketry hobbyists did very well in designing a proof of concept lunar lander (

there are more out there, and to show for their presence it wasn't until this decade that Scientific American stopped the Amateur Scientist columns.

But as it has been said before, most people refuse to trust things they do not understand. My uncle is in the state legislature, and he knows my projects very well. When I tell him about restrictions put on things like the beakers, he is pretty uninformed about their effects.
However, with government is comes down to not only informed lawmaking, but also to politics. It may be only a small minority of representatives who want to restrict things like home science, but they manage to get laws passed by giving/receiving favors from other representatives, and presenting purely one sided arguments

Making a government change its mind on matters like these may only prove worse until people become more informed, but I don't think that is going to be any time soon. The best I think we can do is let those around us know all they want on what it is we do, and how we go about doing it. Yes, some things are best done in a lab but you have to start somewhere. I put projects from my science hobbies onto my resumes, and I got pretty big scholarships to engineering departments who want me to work with them. Put this on a resume to anywhere other than a knowledgeable community, and they'd think you were insane!

luckily for me, whenever I am working on a project I am always willing to explain how things work, and that seems to be enough for most people.

-Jimmy

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention: big labs and companies are, in many cases, against what amateur science promotes: true innovation in areas of study where the lab prefers to be very conservative. Big companies and some labs do not like taking risks studying something that is unknown, and the labs that do study such things are not necessarily going to focus on a very broad range of the vast unknown but on a small portion of it.
Amateur Science allows people to delve into the unknown, unrestricted by their school or labs and whatnot. that is what true science should be, entering into a mindset that is new and different. Yes, many labs do this and they do it a lot, but making such few labs that truly do such things the only ones who should is slowing down progress and downright dangerous: what if they had to shut down? OR what if they hit pay-dirt on one idea, and then started to focus on it alone like many other labs? It is a slow and inevitable path to self-suppression of ideas and opinion.

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