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Registered Member #160
Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 02:07AM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 938
Wikileaks.org has been placed on the blacklist by the ACMA now. It must have kiddieporn on it! Soon we'll be safe from knowing warcrimes even happen. I recommend the doco Iraq for Sale.
Registered Member #531
Joined: Sat Feb 17 2007, 10:51AM
Location: Burlington, Vermont
Posts: 125
Blackplasma wrote ...
Scott, please edit that into a private message instead. We're civilized enough here to have adult discourse, which I'm sure you'd prefer to the quality of replies on the inflammatory 'arfcom' circlejerk.
What? My query was is no way inflammatory! I, as a political moderate that also happens to be a vet, am always curious about the service history of those on both sides of the debate. I have offered no pinion one way or the other nor will I in this forum.
I must say I am offended at your tone, particularly as you tossed this grenade to begin with!
Registered Member #63
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425
Here's a measured interpretation from someone who has been over there: (and accompanying discussion)
"TL;DR: I'm military and been right over that neighborhood at a different time; the video may be disturbing but doesn't strike me as unjustifiable. The coverup is what we should save our real vitriol for. I know some of you will immediately dismiss this as you view everyone in the military as inherently evil. I find that silly. (There are also people who think I can do no wrong because I AM and I find that dangerous). Give it a read anyway.
War is an ugly, atrocious action. Bad things happen every day; good things only rarely. It's a waste of money, time, potential, and especially lives. What's in this video is distasteful to say the least, but it's also intentionally inflammatory (presumably so WL gets more clicks, and we all obliged them). This video is from a period of increasing, and increasingly violent, action by insurgents. Mortar and rocket attacks, IEDs/EFPs, executions in the most grotesque manner, were all becoming the norm.
The men you hear are reacting to stress from a variety of sources: lack of sleep because of indirect fire attacks, stress from friends being WIA/KIA, stress from feeling little support from the Iraqis at that time, from being away from home and family. In all that stress, they still behaved according to the rules of engagement. They positively identified small arms (which are a threat) and misidentified an RPG. Had I not known, I would also have called out RPG. It unfortunately looks like it, and that was amplified by the pose he took. WL added in captions to let you know there were cameras to amplify outrage, but having flown around Baghdad in helos everything looks like a threat after they shoot at you.
Shooting the van was also justifiable because the "insurgents" were going to collect their wounded and weapons. Clearly the aircrew were wrong, but not unjustifiably and probably only in hindsight. They followed the ROEs, received approval to fire, and did so efficiently. Further, the initial statements that said they were engaged with a violent group also does not strike me as "cover up." If you've ever been involved with an emergency situation you know the first reports out are usually wrong. The later reports, however, I find repugnant. Events like this make me want to stay in the military because I don't want the bastards trying to cover up what was a horrific mistake thinking I won't be right over their shoulder next time.
I have found virtually all the military members I was with in Iraq serious, professional (at least on duty!), and genuinely concerned for civilians. You saw the soldiers running out with the kids. Genuine concern there, from fathers, older brothers, cousins that know kids like that back home. The amount of work we did to keep civilians out of harms way was breathtaking sometimes because it put us in much more vulnerable situations. I'm good with that. I signed up, they didn't. As for the attitude and demeanor of the aircrew, yep, it's stomach-turning. I did see this on occasion, and it's not something I've seen many redditors say they teach you in training. It's a defense mechanism to deal with the privations and violence you see. Dehumanizing the enemy makes it easier to deal with it. If you've never read or seen a synopsis of On Killing you absolutely should. That's why running over a body was seemingly funny. I'm ashamed to say I've had similar gut reactions of really terrible things, and like those guys I feel awful about it when I reflect.
This post isn't to justify the killings, but hopefully to tone down some of the hyperbole. It's a terrible tragedy; it's a waste; I'd love to see us out of Iraq as soon as feasible. It's not a war crime. It's not 18-year-old kids just wanting to kill people for the fun of it. Now, let's all be pissed together that it took this long to get the real story out. OK, too long of a ramble but I needed to get it off my chest. Ask away if you have questions; I'll tell you what I can."
Coronafix wrote ...
Wikileaks.org has been placed on the blacklist by the ACMA now. It must have kiddieporn on it! Soon we'll be safe from knowing warcrimes even happen.
When did that happen?
scott fusare wrote ... What? My query was is no way inflammatory! I, as a political moderate that also happens to be a vet, am always curious about the service history of those on both sides of the debate.
You're right, Scott. I take that back. I jumped in too quickly thinking of the tone that developed on the other forum.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
You shouldn't believe everything you see and hear. Wikileaks is notorious for releasing garbage like this and has a long history of releasing simarily viral fake/hoax videos.
Registered Member #2123
Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312
"You shouldn't believe everything you see and hear. Wikileaks is notorious for releasing garbage like this"
That's an ad hominem statement. As a moderator you should avoid making them.
This Apache video is inconvientlty authentic, verified as such by the U.S. militiary. It is certainly not garbage, I am surprised you would call it that.
And can you name where that quote about shooting women and children first appeared? Hint: Not in "Full Metal Jacket".
... not Russel! Registered Member #1
Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
The video is quite authentic. That said, it's a shame it was released edited and wrapped in sensationalistic headlines that pretty much preclude intelligent discussion on the matter. Evidently it's either murder or not murder, and everyone had better get on one side of the line or the other in a hurry. A shame, really, as this could have been an opportunity to really learn some things rather than yet another divider.
The full, unedited video was an interesting watch. For anyone who hasn't seen it yet and would like to, I'd suggest putting aside the headline for the moment and watching the un-annotated video first. The shorter video includes some material that helps explain what's going on, possible only with the clarity that hindsight affords.
What happened on that day is very tragic, appalling, and IMHO, unforgivable. People everywhere in the world should be furious, and even more furious about the cover-up that followed. However, the way some people are willing to attempt to manipulate the event to fit an agenda is just sad.
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Collateral murder
