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Collateral murder

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ragnar

Mon Apr 05 2010, 07:11PM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

5th April 2010 10:44 EST
WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

(Photographers Saeed Chmagh and Namir Noor-Eldeen with cameras slung over shoulders)

Main site overtrafficked, download here: collateral-murder.flv (63MB) or view on Youtube / Vimeo / Blip.TV / WikiLeaks / English transcript.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.

The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.

After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".

Consequently, WikiLeaks has released the classified Rules of Engagement for 2006, 2007 and 2008, revealing these rules before, during, and after the killings.

WikiLeaks has released both the original 38 minutes video and a shorter version with an initial analysis. Subtitles have been added to both versions from the radio transmissions.

WikiLeaks obtained this video as well as supporting documents from a number of military whistleblowers. WikiLeaks goes to great lengths to verify the authenticity of the information it receives. We have analyzed the information about this incident from a variety of source material. We have spoken to witnesses and journalists directly involved in the incident.

WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work.

klugesmith

Mon Apr 05 2010, 08:05PM

Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716

[edit] Sorry everyone, I took the bait and got political. [/edit]

Please know I've always thought the war in Iraq is a mistake started by G W Bush.

There are lethal mistakes, collateral damage, and murders committed by both sides.
Before getting too worked up by the inherently inflammatory actual event
recorded in this video and transcript, please let's keep in mind:

Most counts by respectable NGO's and journalists show that noncombatant Iraqis
violently killed or wounded by the "insurgents" very substantially outnumber those
by the "coalition military". And that includes the extensive aerial bombing in 2003
before the fall of Saddam.

So although the US-led coalition forces are not all as professional and well-intentioned
as conservatives like to think, their enemies (who want to run the country differently)
demonstrate by their actions a systematically lower regard for human life, not to mention
"rules of engagement".
Unless one accepts terror as a necessary tactic by less-armed side in an unsymmetric war.

MinorityCarrier

Mon Apr 05 2010, 08:53PM

Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312

This war isn't a mistake, it's a crime.

Klugesmith, your argument is base sophistry, and merely serves to enable this kind of atrocity. I don't give a rat's ass that the insurgents are killing more, I don't want my country's military committing war crimes.

The horrific killing of unarmed people is bad enough, but yes this stuff happens. That the military tried to suppress and deny is the greater concern here and is the crime that is the most troubling. I am grateful for those in the military who recognized this was wrong and leaked the preserved video (many other videos showing war crimes have been destroyed) so that we may learn and improve.

ragnar

Mon Apr 05 2010, 10:04PM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

Hi Rich, Mike,

There is no "bait" here. Symmetrical criminality is a convenient justification, but what really provoked me to post this was the fact Reuters were unsuccessful since 2008 requesting release of this video under the FOI Act.

Compounding the problem is the claims of ignorance: "I don't know how the children were hurt." (Major Brent Cummings, executive officer 2-16, US Army). The confidence that the video would never be released undermines any credibility he might have had.

The utter non-coverage by CNN / MSNBC / NYT / Fox is a powerful statement indeed about mainstream media in the United States. The latest news of Tiger Woods infidelity is apparently more newsworthy, though the Huffington Post, BBC and Al Jazeera caught on.

EEYORE

Tue Apr 06 2010, 02:59AM

Registered Member #99 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637

You know, few people here know all the facts about this war. I dont know them, and I bet neither do any of you. So when you call something a crime, or state something being fact based on your FEELINGS, this makes you look ignorant and irritating. Its okay to agree or not agree with something, but calling something a CRIME based on your own limited reasoning is stupid.

How would you all feel if I decided to call OBAMA a criminal and all those that voted for him part criminals based simply on my own reasoning and feelings due to things that Ive "heard" from others?

No doubt many of you in other countries disagree with the war (so do most Americans) as well as disagree with the USA in general, but be very careful calling something a crime without some damn good facts to back you up. And no, wiki "facts" dont count.

Furthermore, war is terrible. Try to be a bit stronger when you learn of something sad that results of war. War is about KILLING, not having sympathy for others. If you are not for one country, then you are against them. That makes you their enemy and a potential target. You dont need to be packing to be considered a target. You think this war is bad? Go read what was done in the past.

Bottom line, war is war. War is killing and death. Torture and violence are all fair game in war. Thats why people go to great lenghts to prevent war.

I think we should all stick to talking about wires and capacitors on this board. NO ONE HERE is an authority on the war, nor any politics. I wont stand for having people pass judgement on my country anymore. Remember that when you point the finger, you have three pointing back at you!

Now, if one of the USA generals happens to be a member here and has some facts to present, lets have it.
Matt

3l3ctrici7y

Tue Apr 06 2010, 08:09AM

Registered Member #1806 Joined: Sun Nov 09 2008, 04:58AM
Location: USA
Posts: 136

There's an intelligent discussion of this event going on over at arfcom, by people that actually do have a good idea of what's going on.

Steve Conner

Tue Apr 06 2010, 10:00AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

EEYORE wrote ...

I think we should all stick to talking about wires and capacitors on this board. NO ONE HERE is an authority on the war, nor any politics.

I agree. As soon as this thread degenerates into a fist fight, which it will, it'll get "schwacked" under the 4hv rules of engagement.

Scott Fusare

Tue Apr 06 2010, 10:01AM

Registered Member #531 Joined: Sat Feb 17 2007, 10:51AM
Location: Burlington, Vermont
Posts: 125

EEYORE wrote ...

I think we should all stick to talking about wires and capacitors on this board.

Agreed Matt, but since you are wearing your politics on your sleeve please indulge me one question? Did you serve?

Regards

Scott

GhostNull

Tue Apr 06 2010, 10:42AM

Registered Member #2648 Joined: Sun Jan 24 2010, 12:45PM
Location: Australia
Posts: 291

EEYORE wrote ...

I think we should all stick to talking about wires and capacitors on this board.

I agree too let's kill this political thread before this gets out of hand

oooohhh mmooooddddeeerator

ragnar

Tue Apr 06 2010, 11:05AM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

GhostNull, rest easy.

You should have no qualms with the calm presentation of video evidence. I'm pleased to read the considered responses of Klugesmith, MinorityCarrier and EEYORE; the diversity of reception is interesting and valuable.

Scott, please edit that into a private message instead. We're civilized enough here to have adult discourse, which I'm sure you'd prefer to the quality of replies on the inflammatory 'arfcom' circlejerk.

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