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UK: BBC: Laser owners 'arrested on sight'

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LAN_403

Zum Beispiel

Fri Dec 18 2009, 07:24PM

Registered Member #514 Joined: Sun Feb 11 2007, 12:27AM
Location: Somewhere in Pirkanmaa, Finland
Posts: 295

So Orwell was right but: 1. he got the year wrong and 2. he was betting on the wrong system

To be serious: Yes, shining lasers at planes = very very bad. But outright outlawing carrying lasers = very very stupid. Just as with guns, the criminals will have them regardless of any law, or they'll find some other way (But let's not get into that).

The thing about rights is that once you've given them away, they are never, never, coming back. The thing with democracy (democrazy?) is that all it ever promises to give is for the majority to be happy. And as long as +50% of the people don't mind the goverment can do anything and impose any law they want... and well, that's what they're supposed to do. Some people will be mad about it, but the majority will be happy to know that now there is absolutely no way a terrorist can down a plane with a $30 electronic gadget...

*Headdesk*

IntraWinding

Fri Dec 18 2009, 07:40PM

Registered Member #2261 Joined: Mon Aug 03 2009, 01:19AM
Location: London, UK
Posts: 581

I should think the police are quite worried about criminals using lasers to see off pursuing helicopters. Presumably if they significantly threaten the helicopter it will break off the pursuit. On the other hand, police pilots are far more likely to accept regular use of protective goggles than commercial pilots I would have thought.

If the lasers' kids use are a real threat their use should carry an appropriately very harsh sentence and that will hopefully stop most casual abuse.

If you have lasers and use them sensibly, or at least sensibly with regard to vehicles, please don't stop using them! Don't sell them. Self censorship of this sort is very harmful to your freedom!

Conundrum

Sat Dec 19 2009, 10:53AM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4061

Hmm... under ther new laws carrying a laptop and camera can get you "arrested on sight" even if you are a commerical photographer, so no change there.

More concerning is the misuse of near UV lasers in some nightclubs, where they purchase an illegally (and presumably uncertified) modified Spider laser, that has had the red diode replaced by one removed from a bluray drive.

ran into one over here, and my estimates are that it is over 100mW *per beam* which is seriously unsafe.
Plus they have it badly adjusted so it bounces off reflective bars nearby and scatters the beam into the pub area.

(end of rant)

IMHO this applies to hand held pointers. If you are using something mains powered such as a homemade etching machine then its probably fine for now.

Still, its another reason to include safety interlocks and some sort of key mechanism just in case the Plod come knocking.
-A

HV Enthusiast

Sat Dec 19 2009, 07:21PM

Registered Member #15 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068

First of all, this type of legislation isn't written toward those who use lasers responsibly. Its merely written and passed as law to provide law enforcement with the power to quickly arrest and prosecute those who are using lasers in an irresponsible fashion.

Its like fireworks. Its illegal in many states in the US, but if you use them responsibly, the police won't bother you. But if you do use them irresponsibly, it gives police the power to arrest and fine those individuals on the spot as well as consficate them immediately.

Of course, about 90% of the people i see using fireworks use them irresponsibly, so its really the people's own fault they are outlawed.

ragnar

Sat Dec 19 2009, 08:50PM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

Proud Mary quotes from BBC UK wrote ...
If the beam is shone into the cockpit it can refract on the thousands of surface scratches on the aircraft's windscreen, making the whole windscreen temporarily light up and blinding the pilot, he added.

Hey, don't tell the Taliban - we wouldn't want them to bring down a billion dollar plane and pilot with a ten dollar diode!

EastVoltResearch wrote ...
but if you use them responsibly, the police won't bother you

Laser laws like fireworks laws? Not really. What about that cop who didn't like you at school, or doesn't want you photographing / videorecording their powertrips?

These laws simply become convenient ways to criminalize reasonable citizens in unreasonable circumstances.

Dave Marshall

Sun Dec 20 2009, 04:28AM

Registered Member #16 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 02:22PM
Location: New Wilmington, PA
Posts: 554

I have a unique perspective on this one. I spent 6 years as an aviator, and I've been 'dazzled'. Luckily, out of the four of us in the cockpit, I was the only one that really got hit, and I wasn't in control of the airplane.

As brtaman said, these lasers are virtually harmless while an aircraft is at cruising altitude. Besides the ~6 mile minimum separation, it's virtually impossible for anyone to do more than very very briefly flash in the cockpit at that range.

Approach and departure routes are unfortunately where best conditions merge with maximum risk, as aircraft are low and slow, autopilot is disengaged, and pilots are relying on visual cues outside the cockpit to fly the aircraft.

I was dazzled on approach. We were flying into a heavily populated area in a 'friendly' area in the Middle East. He got us pretty good, held it on the cockpit for several seconds, and got me square in the face as I looked out the side window back toward the wing. My night vision dropped from fully adjusted to virtually blind immediately. Had I been in control of the airplane and a solo pilot, my ONLY option would have been to declare an emergency, level off, and fly straight until I regained some degree of night vision. In particularly bad cases of laser radiation exposure, its possible said recovery could be hours or longer in the offing, ensuring a very unpleasant attempt at landing while virtually blind.

Unfortunately, its exactly the same paradox encountered by the gun control argument. Lasers don't blind pilots. Dumbasses with lasers do. Unfortunately, you can't cure stupid, at least not without committing genocide. That leaves lawmakers to make it as difficult as possible to acquire the favored instrument of the crime. It didn't work curbing gun crime. It won't work curbing this crime unfortunately. In the mean time, we all get to pay the price for dumbasses.

Wanna see some real stupid stuff? Wait till someone with a laser finally succeeds in bringing down an aircraft. I would suspect whatever country it occurs in will simply ban any laser that isn't a keychain outright.

In America, the argument will be made that there is no constitutional assurance of laser pointers, nor is there an absolute requirement pretty much anywhere for citizens to possess them. They'd ban them, and of course, completely fail at upholding the ban, ensuring that the devices are widely available, and anyone possessing them is a criminal.

-Dave

aonomus

Sun Dec 20 2009, 07:54AM

Registered Member #1497 Joined: Thu May 22 2008, 05:24AM
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 801

Two thoughts come to mind:

1. To the Brits, 1984 isn't a warning, its a manual on dictatorship.
2. Do they *really* want to fight the ensuing cat uprising? Thats right. Cats. Cats love laserpointers.

In all seriousness though, there is a risk of idiots with things that can be harmful, leading to harm to others. Fair game when they get caught and arrested. Its not like you can ban water because it has been used for torture. When it leads to blanket laws like 'everything of this type is banned', its ripe for abuse. When you start to loose freedoms that become rights, which then get taken away, it sets a pattern. The Brits have lost their right for freedom outright in some way. Now its just a matter of putting in the laws that make it illegal, and shift it from a society of freedom and thought, to a Napoleonic culture of 'if it isn't expressly permitted, it is expressly forbidden'.

Its funny really, back after the Cold war it was all 'rah rah rah, communism this, communism that'. Since then all the 'democratic' countries have been socialized bit by bit, leading to a decay of what it means to truly be free.

Some examples:
- The right to privacy
- The right to photograph/film in public
- The right to free speech
- The right to decline unlawful searches and entries

The list goes on.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Stand up for your rights to tinker, experiment, and learn. Yes, these things can be hazardous, or can lead to new understanding of things. Many things can be hazardous, but in most cases they have a practical use for constructive purposes. Make sure people understand that what you are doing is not dangerous, that you understand the science, and have no intention of being unsafe or causing harm or damage to anyone, or anything. Keep detailed records of all your experiments, your goals, intentions, predicted effects and observations.

If you seek to experiment in secrecy and solitude, it is your insulation from reality, other people, and their awareness of what you do that leads to you being investigated in many cases. By telling other people what you do, and how it works (or at least that you know the science behind it), it gives you practice and confidence in that people know what you do and support you, so that one day if you sit down infront of someone who could decide whether you are a normal person playing with a musical tesla coil, or an evil terrorist, you are better prepared. That laser pointer isn't for blinding pilots, its for studying optical data transmission modes, etc.

</rant>

Proud Mary

Sun Dec 20 2009, 10:58AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Who is John Galt?

ragnar

Sun Dec 20 2009, 05:12PM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

Proud Mary wrote ...

Who is John Galt?

I wish there were yet more lands to be discovered -- volcano seeding, anyone?

Turkey9

Mon Dec 21 2009, 06:13AM

Registered Member #1451 Joined: Wed Apr 23 2008, 03:48AM
Location: Boulder, Co
Posts: 661

Zb wrote ...

The thing about rights is that once you've given them away, they are never, never, coming back.

Haha yeah except when it gets to the point that the people revolt. That's usually what triggers civil wars; oppression of the people and lust for power until the common man gets fed up and unites against the tyrant. Unless the government successfully oppresses you and a 1984 scenario occurs. Man, I really wish that I never have to see anything like that happen. The people should fight to keep their rights before it goes too far. And in my opinion, even the US is getting too close to giving up one too many rights.

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