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<OT> Pseudoscientists strike again in Ireland

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aonomus

Tue Oct 06 2009, 05:23AM

Registered Member #1497 Joined: Thu May 22 2008, 05:24AM
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 801

wrote ...

I don't expect things to improve without government action, and the Plutocracies are controlling the government.

But it was government involvement that screwed it up in the first place. I think that if parents are given the option for better education for their kids, they should take it (if they are themselves educated), and that many parents are forced to use the state system because of other reasons that prevent private education or homeschooling (which in itself is another can of worms).

Homeschooling if done right has good results, but the media loves to distort, and any screwup they hear of will get blown out of proportion, whereas you hear rarely of homeschooling success stories.

Chris Russell

Tue Oct 06 2009, 06:06AM

... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052

aonomus wrote ...

But it was government involvement that screwed it up in the first place.

Indeed. Governments, like corporations, have a vested interest in having a populace that isn't too caught up in things like science, logic, or critical thinking. An informed populace is a populace that holds their leaders accountable for their actions, and cannot be controlled through fear or intimidation. If the situation is going to improve, the vehicle of change isn't going to be government, nor will it be mass media. Change will come from people like ourselves.

As individuals, we have many opportunities. Each time we are presented with a question like "so what's this Tesla coil stuff all about," we are faced with a choice. We can shirk off the question and contribute to the public perception of science as something mysterious, closed off, and arrogant. Or, we can answer the question, explain our enthusiasm, and perhaps introduce someone to a world of possibilities they never considered.

As a community, we can affect even greater change. Teslathons, despite being a great opportunity to get together, are also a great opportunity to do some reaching out. See if some of the local news stations or papers would like to do a story. Try to encourage some involvement from the general public, with a keen focus, of course, on safety.

While I'm convinced that there are a large number of people out there that stomp all over everything that science and logic stands for, I'm also firmly convinced that the future is very much in our hands. If we continue to withdraw in the face of pseudoscience, I am certain that things are only going to get worse. If we lash out angrily, however foolish and rage-worthy the actions of some can be, we'll cement science as something alien, secretive, elitist, and hostile. If we're willing to confront ignorance with reason and an open invitation to learn more, we can make great headway against this problem.

Conundrum

Tue Oct 06 2009, 07:02AM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

I agree, the lack of education doesen't help. Try explaining to someone how an appliance works, and most people don't have a clue.

The problem IMHO is the "idiot box" which children watch from a young age, used as a cheap way to keep them quiet. Numbs their minds and turns them into sheeple....

Proud Mary

Tue Oct 06 2009, 07:44AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Chris has made a very important point, I think, which I call The Mission to Explain.

Though we are only a tiny remote island of the science archipelago far out in cyberspace, this site is as much about learning as as it is about having fun, and having learned, explaining to others.

Wherever learning is coupled with fun, human knowledge will advance at the greatest possible rate, because no on dislikes having fun, though others may dislike our having it.

Firnagzen

Tue Oct 06 2009, 12:06PM

Registered Member #567 Joined: Tue Mar 06 2007, 10:55AM
Location: Singapore
Posts: 147

Ooh, shiny topic.

From where I stand (18 year old, in the supposed science stream in school), the problem now is that many people have been weaned on constant entertainment, and the moment something doesn't immediately deliver something fun, it's dismissed. Not to say I don't like watching stuff blowing up and so on, but the moment I try to explain something off of these forums to anyone, with analogies and all, they tend to zone out. No immediate entertainment, see? Even if I demonstrate some, they'll still switch off if I try to explain.

I'm not hiding in an ivory tower. I've been locked in here.

EDIT: Incidentally, what defines science, really? The scientific method, or of testing ideas through experimentation?

plazmatron

Wed Oct 07 2009, 10:50PM

Registered Member #1134 Joined: Tue Nov 20 2007, 04:39PM
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 351

The parents who complained, and the Principal who removed the WiFi, should be prosecuted for damaging/disrupting the children's education.
They should be made to pay personally for the laying of miles of Cat5, and have a carbon tax imposed on them, for the needless, and willful disposal of routers, access points, and wireless cards.

Perhaps if ignorance came with a price, less of the population would choose to be ignorant.

Les

teravolt

Thu Oct 08 2009, 03:18AM

Registered Member #195 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 08:27PM
Location: Berkeley, ca.
Posts: 1111

The parents who complained, and the Principal who removed the WiFi are the same people that put cellular telephones to there heads and use ac power in there homes and use microwave ovens ect. Yet they don't think about that. Thease are the same poeple who don't vacsinate there children and endanger us with there desieses and have forgot about horible desieses of past. As long as there no conserquenses for being ignerent for some it will continue. Unfortunatly the school will pay more for the wire and kids will be the ones who will be punished. One light at the beginning of the tunel is that technology will forse people and youth to get on board and ride the wave and the naysayers will be left behind.

MinorityCarrier

Thu Oct 08 2009, 05:14AM

Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312

You cannot explain something to someone who does not wish to know. It's kinda like recovery from drug or alcohol addiction, it won't work unless the addict wants it to.

Genetic diversity results in some of us being curious inquisitive, rational, for some scientifically inclined. In others it results in irrational faith, believing religious dogma, following the leader, prone to mass hysteria. There is a survival advantage for the cohesive group bound by common belief, but this behavior is easily exploited by manipulative interests, be they government, religious, or business interests (largely the same these days in the U.S.).

Being educated and taught to think critically and rationally at a young age is the way to improve rationality, and improve immunity to purveyors of psuedoscience. Home schooling scientific thinking works quite well. I can attest personally. But home-schooling is often still up against powerful political interests that want easily manipulated masses, and will compromise education to acquire them. Home schooling can't prevail against this I don't believe, it will take government mandate.

I don't know, but I bet nations like Sweden and Germany have a very 'scientific' population, for this reason.

uzzors2k

Thu Oct 08 2009, 09:39PM

Registered Member #95 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:57PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 1308

MinorityCarrier wrote ...

I don't know, but I bet nations like Sweden and Germany have a very 'scientific' population, for this reason.

I like to think it's because the number of religious people in the population is so low. Church-goers are, believe it or not, a minority here and I'd assume they are in the other Nordic countries as well. For some back up, here's a source

Look at the histogram, the title reads "Percentage that go to church at least once a month." Now I'm not saying religious people don't think critically, as generalizing an entire population isn't correct, but I'd dare say there are fewer critical thinkers among the religious than those who have chosen to not to partake in religion (which is a choice here, as everyone is defaulted to be members of the church or "statskirken").

We get Discovery "Europe" here, and hence Brainiac and other such shows. Just today I saw some British program called "Did you know" or something similar, and the topic of dowsing came up. There they showed a guy dowse for water, present his own "theory" of how it works (which went along the lines of our subconscious mind transmitting the "frequency" of the matter we wished to find, which was transmitted back to us, and our subconscious interpreted this to made the rods move), and had someone dig a well where he said there would be water. Water was found, and the host seemed convinced it was real. The segment ended shortly therafter, with the host seemingly convinced, and we were left to make our own conclusion -!

For one thing no questions were asked by the host, no opposing views were presented, and no one even questioned how many assumptions the dowser had to make so his theory would add up, and above all, no experiments were conducted to see whether we even witnessed a real phenomena and not just a simple hoax! Dowsing was simply presented as fact, on the Discovery channel which is supposed to be a science channel.

The same thing happens here too but not among those how claim to be scientific (only journalists fall for stuff like ESP, there was a large write-up here some time ago about it). In my experience Norwegian scientific programs are pretty good, and don't turn into content-less "let's see it explode" programming. Both views are always presented, and the hosts remain neutral. That's largely because obvious quack topics like dowsing aren't even mentioned! Most full-witted people I've encountered here aren't gullible, and would be skeptical about anything that makes out of the ordinary claims.

Renesis

Fri Oct 09 2009, 12:39AM

Registered Member #2028 Joined: Mon Mar 16 2009, 08:13PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 319

Uzzors wrote ...

We get Discovery "Europe" here, and hence Brainiac and other such shows. Just today I saw some British program called "Did you know" or something similar, and the topic of dowsing came up. There they showed a guy dowse for water, present his own "theory" of how it works (which went along the lines of our subconscious mind transmitting the "frequency" of the matter we wished to find, which was transmitted back to us, and our subconscious interpreted this to made the rods move), and had someone dig a well where he said there would be water. Water was found, and the host seemed convinced it was real. The segment ended shortly therafter, with the host seemingly convinced, and we were left to make our own conclusion -!

For one thing no questions were asked by the host, no opposing views were presented, and no one even questioned how many assumptions the dowser had to make so his theory would add up, and above all, no experiments were conducted to see whether we even witnessed a real phenomena and not just a simple hoax! Dowsing was simply presented as fact, on the Discovery channel which is supposed to be a science channel.

The same thing happens here too but not among those how claim to be scientific (only journalists fall for stuff like ESP, there was a large write-up here some time ago about it). In my experience Norwegian scientific programs are pretty good, and don't turn into content-less "let's see it explode" programming. Both views are always presented, and the hosts remain neutral. That's largely because obvious quack topics like dowsing aren't even mentioned! Most full-witted people I've encountered here aren't gullible, and would be skeptical about anything that makes out of the ordinary claims.

I hate those TV-shows. I dont denie that there are things we dont understand in this world, but that does not give us the right to make our own theory and present it as fact. Especially not in international media.

And the level of proof needed to confirm these theories is worryingly low. A grainy black/white photo of a duck shaped object is apparently enough to prove Nessie exists. An electromagnetic disturbance on a tape recorder, sounding like a grunt when played, is translated as "Hello" or "Beelzebub" and thus proving that some shy entity wants a chat. A shadow moving in the corner of a surveilance video is obviously a demon, and if the laws of physics causes something to move slightly then poltergeists are definately present.

Whenever i am faced with such a "fact", i respond with a healthy sceptisism. Ghosts, telekinetics, Nessie, foo-fighters, i'll believe it when i see some real scientific evidence. But i must admit that on the subject of dowsing, im not quite shure what to think. I have seen it happen in real life, my father and i once did a simple test in our living room. He held a plastic clotheshanger with a metal hook firmly against his knees and walked over a extension cord, powering a 1000W electric stove. For no apparent reason the clotheshanger bendt, and finally it snapped in two. And no, i am not trolling. This is a true story.

I still remain a sceptic though. It was a non-scientific test for our amusement only, no data was recorded and no pictures were taken. The result is not valid in any ways. Or as Mythbusters would have said it; Myth confirmed...

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