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<OT> Pseudoscientists strike again in Ireland

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Proud Mary
Sun Oct 04 2009, 10:26PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Steve McConner wrote ...

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

wait a sec... someone very wise already knew this was coming!
Asimov's fourth law of robotics: A robot shall explode the day after its warranty runs out.

and George Orwell before him!
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Frosty90
Mon Oct 05 2009, 01:58AM
Frosty90 Registered Member #1617 Joined: Fri Aug 01 2008, 07:31AM
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 139
If anything, this is further proof of the very poor standards to which the scientific education of the young has fallen in Britain and Ireland. So far as I know, the previously separate subjects of chemistry, physics and biology have been rolled up into one dumbed-down soft n fluffy subject called 'science' - with exams that are no more than multiple choice questions, so in my stat porn view of the world, a percentage of people will appear to get top marks without knowing anything at all, like the proverbial million monkeys and their typewriters.


Has any one ever read "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan? For some reason, real science (science for its own sake) is considered distasteful, boring, dangerous, pointless and often has a generally bad public image (in some places...). People will any day rather accept fantastical stories of psuedoscience than real science. The media doesn't ever help either. (Those in Australia would be familiar with TV programs such as "Today Tonight" and "A Current Affair", which are definitely the worst in this category).
Real science (or common sense) unfortunately doesn't often get a say in important matters.

Cheers,
Jesse
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VulcanBB18
Mon Oct 05 2009, 03:01AM
VulcanBB18 Registered Member #2376 Joined: Mon Sept 21 2009, 05:13AM
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 14
Jesse,

Your mention of those trash tv programs (I wont stoop to call it journalism!) reminds me of a story they ran one day on the very subject of "dangerous electromagnetic fields".

It was the worst article I've ever seen. It featured the host (can't bring myself to call him a journalist) carrying some sort of EMF meter, running around the place putting it near a phone and saying things like, "Ohhh look how the power peaks when the phone rings", or, "Look how much energy is leaking from this microwave" but never once mentioning, or considering any established facts! He didn't even explain what the hell the meter was measuring!

The most galling thing was hearing workmates getting all overwrought about it the next day, and them looking at you like some sort of heretic when you try to explain where they might have got it just a little wrong... sigh....
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Proud Mary
Mon Oct 05 2009, 03:55AM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Frosty90 wrote ...

If anything, this is further proof of the very poor standards to which the scientific education of the young has fallen in Britain and Ireland. So far as I know, the previously separate subjects of chemistry, physics and biology have been rolled up into one dumbed-down soft n fluffy subject called 'science' - with exams that are no more than multiple choice questions, so in my stat porn view of the world, a percentage of people will appear to get top marks without knowing anything at all, like the proverbial million monkeys and their typewriters.


Has any one ever read "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan? For some reason, real science (science for its own sake) is considered distasteful, boring, dangerous, pointless and often has a generally bad public image (in some places...). People will any day rather accept fantastical stories of psuedoscience than real science. The media doesn't ever help either. (Those in Australia would be familiar with TV programs such as "Today Tonight" and "A Current Affair", which are definitely the worst in this category).
Real science (or common sense) unfortunately doesn't often get a say in important matters.

Cheers,
Jesse

That's about it in Britain too, Frosty, where a 'science' programme is often as not presented by a 'celebrity' who we will next see in a "reality" TV show rubbing shoulders and things with models and football stars on a pretend desert island.

The idea of having someone who is actually an expert in a subject explain science to the public seems obvious to me, but not to Rupert Murdoch and the trash TV industry. (Our splendidly misogynist and non-PC octogenarian astronomer Patrick Moore is the expert that has their own TV show - "The Sky at Night" - which is on in the middle of the night too, when hardly anyone can see it.)

What can you say, Jesse? What good can we see in the man or woman who earns more in a year than most earn in a life-time perpetuating dumbed-down and usually misrepresented "celebrity" science but lousy rotten Judases.
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Chris Russell
Mon Oct 05 2009, 05:54AM
Chris Russell ... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Frosty90 wrote ...


Has any one ever read "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan? For some reason, real science (science for its own sake) is considered distasteful, boring, dangerous, pointless and often has a generally bad public image (in some places...). People will any day rather accept fantastical stories of psuedoscience than real science. The media doesn't ever help either. (Those in Australia would be familiar with TV programs such as "Today Tonight" and "A Current Affair", which are definitely the worst in this category).
Real science (or common sense) unfortunately doesn't often get a say in important matters.

Cheers,
Jesse

I am listening to the audiobook right now, actually. Quite excellent, but also dismaying at times, because the problems that face science are truly monumental. We live in a world made possible by incredible advances in science and technology, yet the bulk of the population is quick to reject, twist, misrepresent, or even ignore science. I'm torn by programs like Mythbusters. They do teach some of the basics of science, such as critical thinking and experimentation, but they also turn science into a sort of farce of itself by ignoring some of the most basic and important aspects of the scientific method.

Overall, there's sadly little we can do. It starts with a flicker of an idea: "how can radio waves be harmless if they can cook food? They *must* be doing something bad to your insides." Once a person who is ignorant of the principles of science has let an idea like this take root, it's too late. Humans don't like to be wrong, or mistaken. This person will now go out on the hunt for supporting evidence. Contrary evidence, no matter how reliable, concrete, or voluminous, will be discarded. And why not? That's how most people are taught, even in school, how it works: pick a side, gather supporting evidence for this side, and construct an argument based on this evidence. Chilling.
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Nicko
Mon Oct 05 2009, 08:46AM
Nicko Registered Member #1334 Joined: Tue Feb 19 2008, 04:37PM
Location: Nr. London, UK
Posts: 615
Dare I say "Fear of the unknown".

In days of yore, ordinary folk (hoi polloi) could grasp the essence of what went on around them - the industrial revolution was mechanical, and well understood by anyone with half an idea about levers and kettles.

Faraday, Maxwell et al upped the ante but they were still doing science that was easy to replicate with stuff from the hardware store.

Things got trickier through the twentieth century with concepts of relativity and general advances in physics.

Now the rate of change is insane - I have a degree in EE, read New Scientist every week + a bunch of other stuff, and that is not enough to keep on top of what is going on.

Digital media via the net or traditional delivery saturates peoples' limited minds. Quoting Conan Doyle (before he went radically off the deep end):
"I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skillful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."
My issue with this simplistic statement is that Doyle assumes what people take into their "attics" are at the very least demonstrable facts, not pseudo-science twaddle (to which he himself would succumb). With information overload comes the loss of objectivity and the ability to think for yourself.

Face it, being rational and demanding scientific proof simply isn't sexy, is hard work and doesn't make good TV.

Bah. Humbug.
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Renesis
Mon Oct 05 2009, 01:17PM
Renesis Registered Member #2028 Joined: Mon Mar 16 2009, 08:13PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 319
This thread reminds me of everything i fear in this world. Ignorance, public stupidity and especially wrong-teaching. Neither the media nor politicians are interested in facts, they only bother with whatever pleases the people, for ratings and popularity. Thats like a shepheard that follows his sheeps in stead of leading them.

What is so dangerous about wrong teaching in school and media is that people will earnestly believe whatever is said, and refuse to alter their perspective. As an example, I have been trying to convince my dear uncle that it is the metal shell of a car that keeps him safe in a thunderstorm, and not the rubber tires, but to no avail. Guess why? He saw it on TV. And he is an educated engineer! Michael Faraday must be turning in his grave. My point is that anyone can easily be convinced to believe anything, as long as he respects whoever says it. That includes parents, teachers, friends, TV hosts...

And I am deeply and utterly disappointed with Discovery Channel. They have the ability, no, the responsibility to educate millions of people worldwide. It used to be my favourite channel, with interesting scientific shows and facts. Now its all about ratings and viewers. I can spend the evening watching how its made and go like: "Thats not true, thats wrong, thats bullshit". People watch this, and they believe every word of it. BAH!

I think the air has gone out of Mythbusters too. There are no scientific testing anymore, just a demostration of the myths. When Adam looks at the high-speed and goes "Wow! Thats perfect!", it is pretty much guaranteed that they are far off. Witch is not surprising, considering that none of them are scientists. They are special effects guys.

Still, the biggest source of incorrect information must be the internet. Have you ever taken time to read through the film comments on youtube? They practice science the same way it was done before Galileo Galilei. If one supports a theory, and ten supports the other one, the latter is automatically true. No other facts needed.

Edit: Thank god for Science Illustrated and History Channel. They remain objective and serious, witch must be difficult on the modern crazy train.
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aonomus
Mon Oct 05 2009, 04:26PM
aonomus Registered Member #1497 Joined: Thu May 22 2008, 05:24AM
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 801
One problem I see in society these days is that youth don't aspire or put forth some darn effort, they'd rather go do an English major or some such nonsense, so that adds to the general ignorance.

As for the 'science' students in high school, they come out ill equipped for real science in universities, so that weeds them out too.

So by the time you learn anything real about science, you are a graduate, thus reinforcing the effort that science is dumbed down so that everyone at the low levels can 'succeed' just so they can have the quota for the percentage of students passing.

Even about 20 years ago there used to be educational TV shows for kids, now most of it is pro-consumerism enriched drivel that dumbs kids down.
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MinorityCarrier
Tue Oct 06 2009, 12:13AM
MinorityCarrier Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312
Some of the BBC shows, Horizon productions, NOVA (American PBS) and NHK Productions (Japan) are excellent science shows. The Science Channel and others have succumbed most of the time, to fluff shows, 15 minutes of actual science, and 45 minute of whiz-bang, and repeating scenes.

It is not in the interest of the burgeoning Plutocracies for the proletariat population to be well-educated and think critically. An ignorant, religiously-oriented, and easily manipulated populace is much more desired. It's easier to sell dubious products and services (e.g. subprime mortgages) to them also. Ronald Reagan began the assault on science education, and higher education in general, in this country, and I understand 'dumbing down' is starting to spread to parts of Europe. I don't expect things to improve without government action, and the Plutocracies are controlling the government.
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Frosty90
Tue Oct 06 2009, 04:08AM
Frosty90 Registered Member #1617 Joined: Fri Aug 01 2008, 07:31AM
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 139
Another thing is sometimes, for no terribly apparent reason, some will distort facts for their own sake. For example: a trashy television show on last night called 'Destroyed in Seconds" featuring collapsing buildings and exploding petrol sations. No intellectual content, I know, but I had a look at it anyway (even the scientifically minded can sometimes let them selfs go and say "wow that was a cool explosion" ever now and then....). But something that surprised me was this:

Many here would be familiar with the 'Pepcon' explosion. Link2 Which needles to say featured in the above television program. The thing that really bugged me, was after the first explosion, you can hear in the yutube clip, the guy holding the camera (or whoever) says "Oh thats going to be loud", then 10 seconds later, the shockwave arrives and you hear it. In the edited clip on the television program, the sound of an explosion is dubbed over the video at the exact instant of the explosion, and the voice of the guy saying its 'going to be loud' is bleeped out to sound like "that s ....... loud". Why would you willfully distort simple facts like this? Surely they could have squeezed in a couple of extra seconds for the shockwave to arrive? The narrator could even have said in a dramatic voice something like "And then, 5 seconds later, at the speed of sound, the powerful shockwave arrives....BANG", but no, it was dubbed over the instant of the explosion, and the 'facts' were 'censored' out, reminds me of Orwell's 1984.
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