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What to do with this?

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Zenador

Tue Sept 22 2009, 02:27PM

Registered Member #1733 Joined: Thu Oct 02 2008, 03:17PM
Location: Hamilton, ON, Canada
Posts: 100

Arc - I can see an SGTC in this, almost all the parts are there. I have enough 2kV WIMA caps sitting around for another MMC, I could have 3 in the case in the time it takes me to wind a bunch of secondaries. But I've done SGTCs, and I think my next TC should be SSTC, audio modulated if I can pull it off.

As for restoring it to original, I had some success. In the second pic in my original post, the lower right corner shows the cover for the fog heater. The heater is a small Al cup mounted from below. In the cup is a coiled wire with a woven cover. I reconnected the wires to the switch, mixed the "fog juice", and fired it up. It created the fog, but, the woven cover wicked the glycerin/water mix back to the screw terminals on the underside, and vaporized it there. 90% of the fog was under the deck/stage. This also produced a lot of condensation on the underside. Can we say NOT ideal?!

So now I'm doodling at work, trying to come up with solution to this problem. I may give up, generate the fog externally, and pump it into the box.

The Ozone plate looks neat with the lights off. The corona between the screens gives a nice soft glow.

klugesmith

Tue Sept 22 2009, 04:18PM

Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716

Zenador wrote ...

...wires to the switch, mixed the "fog juice", and fired it up. It created the fog, but, the woven cover wicked the glycerin/water mix back to the screw terminals on the underside, and vaporized it there. 90% of the fog was under the deck/stage. This also produced a lot of condensation on the underside. Can we say NOT ideal?!
So now I'm doodling at work, trying to come up with solution to this problem. I may give up, generate the fog externally, and pump it into the box....

I know you did lots of reading about home-made fog fluid, but there could be very different mechanisms. Google is fruitful with "halloween fog" and "model train smoke". This reference says glycol & water for Halloween fog machines, and warns against making your own with glycerin:

Model train "smoke" is supposed to evaporate instead of linger; those smokers use oil and in fact one store sells a little bottle of "smoke fluid / track cleaner".

Zenador

Tue Sept 22 2009, 08:27PM

Registered Member #1733 Joined: Thu Oct 02 2008, 03:17PM
Location: Hamilton, ON, Canada
Posts: 100

Klugesmith wrote ...

I know you did lots of reading about home-made fog fluid, but there could be very different mechanisms. Google is fruitful with "halloween fog" and "model train smoke". This reference says glycol & water for Halloween fog machines, and warns against making your own with glycerin:

Model train "smoke" is supposed to evaporate instead of linger; those smokers use oil and in fact one store sells a little bottle of "smoke fluid / track cleaner".

Thanks for the warning, and I appreciate your concern. I too read the warnings. I'm not being reckless with the stuff. I look at it as the warnings are for people who are using the home brew fluid in a commercial fogger, allowing it to flow freely into and around an audience. I'm creating the vapor in an enclosed box. So IMO I'm one step removed. And not using this as an excuse, but I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. Can burning glycerin be much worse?

I'm all for warnings and such, but none of us here really follow them. If we did, we would not build any Tesla Coils, pull arcs from MOTs or FBTs, Marx Generators, etc. We have all built one or more, and they all produce some nasty side effects. I hope this doesn't come across as a rant, as that is not my intent. I truly appreciate the concern members here show for one another. I believe that is one of the things that make this forum one of the best I frequent.

Cheers,

Zen

Proud Mary

Tue Sept 22 2009, 08:40PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Hi Zen and Arcs, was it originally an educational demonstration, is that the idea?

klugesmith

Tue Sept 22 2009, 08:47PM

Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716

Sorry Zen, I never meant to suggest a personal safety hazard. Am with you, that there are too many warnings printed to protect stupid people -- actually to protect businesses against liability for mistakes of the stupid.

I think the gotfog.com writer has no clue when he says glycerin is dangerous. Maybe you could slip and fall in a puddle if it were spilled. At first glance I thought he was just worried about people gumming up or overheating their commercial Halloween foggers.

Now noticing that your own gadget has instructions to use oil, I think smoke oil (like from the train store) might be better than any aqueous concoction for that particular smoke-maker. Or as a smoker yourself, leave the electric heater off and just rest a cigarette on the built-in ashtray.

Rich
p.s. these people offer a choice of oil- and water-based smoke machines.

The former "produce a smoke that is far more persistent than the very best of the water based smokes."

Arcstarter

Tue Sept 22 2009, 09:37PM

Registered Member #1225 Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2253

Zenador, FWIW i did not suggest a sgtc, as the... High voltage transformers do not provide enough power to get really anything from. The aluminum box makes it *ideal* for a demonstration unit, to shield electronics, and the acrylic to shield curious hands from getting a nice zap and dangerous burns (Can anyone say gangrene?)

I only wish i never destroyed the box from mine. You live and you learn...

I did not know this was a sales person demo. My 'friends' who lived here about 3 years ago randomly brought it to me, knowing i would be interested. Not sure how they got it, apparently they found it thrown on the side of the street. Though, i cannot imagine a sales person throwing that out. Hmm.

Beware, those high voltage transformers die *so* easily. On the three-header connector on the board with the three HV transformers, the middle is ground, and i have had it arc to the other pins, killing the poor tiny fets. Probably by making it avalanche until they got too hot. Tiny heatsinks.

Also, if you find out what that big black thing with i think 3 wires IIRC connected to on of the transformers is, i would appreciate it if you let me know :D. I always regretted throwing that out instead of investigating. It looked like it was potted, and it greatly limited the output current. Now i am wondering if it was a multiplier, or a resistor or something. I think it was on the needle.

Zenador

Tue Sept 22 2009, 10:59PM

Registered Member #1733 Joined: Thu Oct 02 2008, 03:17PM
Location: Hamilton, ON, Canada
Posts: 100

Wow... Where to start?

Harry,

This is a demo device from EcoQuest. They are a manufacturer of air purification systems. The sales person would fill the chamber with smoke/fog, and use the 3 HV sources to show the potential customer how their system worked, with varying results. The antenna would work, the needle would work faster, and the Ozone plate faster still. A note on the antenna, there is a neon bulb with both leads attached to the HV source. The bulb will glow when the antenna is clearing the chamber (or when I short the antenna to ground.)

Kluge,

With you 100%, no worries. I re-read the "owners manual" (all 4 pages) and it doesn't specify oil. It says "Living Proof Liquid." so your guess is as good as mine. Oil was the first thing that came to mind, but had this device been in use, I would expect to find oil residue on the Nichrome wire insulator. So I tried the glycerin/water mix, and it wicks quickly to the terminals and vaporizes there. I can't remove the insulator, as this would cause the wire to short (the stage is a common ground) and I'd burn out the Nichrome wire. So, I think I'll remove the heater, run it in an external container, and pipe it back into the box. Here's hoping...

Arc,

I wouldn't expect these FBTs to work that hard, they are 3/4 the size of a normal FBT. I have noticed that all 3 are not driven equally. The one transformer powering the Ozone plate will arc more readily than the other 2. And the black thing - I can only assume it's a CW Multiplier or FBT Cascade. Yes, the fact that it's potted is annoying. It's the one on the needle (good memory) but the plate seems to have a higher voltage, so I'm not exactly sure.

The box Arc and I refer to is 3/4" x 3/4" x 2.5". The FBT HV out goes in one end, along with a ground wire. A single HV out on the other end goes to an ionizing point above the stage.

I'm going to give the heater re-work one more shot tonight, then I have to wind some chokes (another unrelated build.)

Cheers guys...

klugesmith

Wed Sept 23 2009, 12:42AM

Registered Member #2099 Joined: Wed Apr 29 2009, 12:22AM
Location: Los Altos, California
Posts: 1716

Not to hijack a thread, but this demo can be contrasted with oil burners designed NOT to generate smoke.

The same people design 100000_HP marine engines (google Wartzilla) but I haven't seen those promoted as low-emission.

Proud Mary

Wed Sept 23 2009, 11:56AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Thanks, Zen, I bet the company went out of business too - with that handle on the top and all, I can see now after what you done told us it has all the look of a traveling sakesman's kit.

Zenador

Wed Sept 23 2009, 02:25PM

Registered Member #1733 Joined: Thu Oct 02 2008, 03:17PM
Location: Hamilton, ON, Canada
Posts: 100

Kluge - now if we could only force that into other industries and applications.

Harry - In fact, the company is still in business

They don't list the device I have on their site, but the manual for Gen1 of the device is here -

Gen1 does not have the ozone plate or the extra fans.

I managed to isolate the Nichrome wire and fog the chamber without generating condensation on the underside near the circuit boards. The glycerin/water mix created a nice fog, but the antenna, needle, and plate did squat on clearing it. I'm not sure about going with the oil based solution. Ionization of the smoked oil would likely cause a film buildup in the box. The only times I don't mind cleaning up oil residue is when cooking, or working on my motorcycle.

I'm thinking this restoration run is at an end, unless someone can point me in the right direction on getting the sucker to break-down the glycerin based fog.

Z

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