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4hv.org :: Forums :: Tesla Coils
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terry filter question

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Move Thread LAN_403
Herr Zapp
Sun Jul 05 2009, 05:50PM
Herr Zapp Registered Member #480 Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
Eniyuki -

Your link to the data on the 100W resistors did not work for me, but I think I found the Tyco 100W power resistors in the TME on-line catalog. Are they the parts with the gold anodized housings? These resistors are not rated for high voltage, but may work, depending on how good the internal insulation is. Be careful to mount them so the housings are isolated from anything at ground potential, as the flashover distance from the resistor terminals to the housing probably will not withstand 15KV.

Don't worry about too many air holes reducing the cooling or quenching performance of your spark gap. You definitely do not want airflow restriction on the "inlet" side of the housing. If you have a powerful vacuum motor, especially is it has a two-stage impeller, it can generate a significant negative pressure. If your gap is surrounded by a negative pressure, the gap breakdown voltage will be reduced, which will reduce performance. In some cases you'll get better performance if you turn the vacuum motor around so that it blows air through the gap, rather than sucking air through the gap. Given that your gap assembly is essentially completed, I'd just add 2X or 3X as many holes in all three plates of your gap enclosure, and test the system.

For your MMC, be careful of mounting the capacitors directly to the surface of a plastic sheet, with holes drilled for the leads. I've seen several MMC failures due to surface tracking across the plastic, probably caused by residue from the soldering flux, sweaty fingerprints, dust, etc. I prefer to mount the capacitors slightly elevated above the board surface using "turret standoffs". These may be hard to find, so you could use any type of insulating spacer (ceramic standoff insulators, short segments of plastic tuning, nylon spacers, etc). In any case, leave planty of spacing between leads that have a large potential difference across them, and after assembly carefully clean everything using isopropyl alcohol.

A few questions for you:
1. What is the gap width that your static gap assembly is currently set to, as shown in your photos?
2. Is the gap spacing adjustable?
3. What are the two objects shown on the LH side of the "black spray paint" photos? The NSTs are obvious, but I can't determine what the other items are.

Here are a few photos of small MMcs using the standoff construction method:


Regards,
Herr Zapp
S

014uf

014uf Edge

Up
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eniyuki
Mon Jul 06 2009, 07:58AM
eniyuki Registered Member #2148 Joined: Tue Jun 02 2009, 02:22AM
Location:
Posts: 62
Herr Zapp wrote ...

Eniyuki -

Your link to the data on the 100W resistors did not work for me, but I think I found the Tyco 100W power resistors in the TME on-line catalog. Are they the parts with the gold anodized housings? These resistors are not rated for high voltage, but may work, depending on how good the internal insulation is. Be careful to mount them so the housings are isolated from anything at ground potential, as the flashover distance from the resistor terminals to the housing probably will not withstand 15KV.

Don't worry about too many air holes reducing the cooling or quenching performance of your spark gap. You definitely do not want airflow restriction on the "inlet" side of the housing. If you have a powerful vacuum motor, especially is it has a two-stage impeller, it can generate a significant negative pressure. If your gap is surrounded by a negative pressure, the gap breakdown voltage will be reduced, which will reduce performance. In some cases you'll get better performance if you turn the vacuum motor around so that it blows air through the gap, rather than sucking air through the gap. Given that your gap assembly is essentially completed, I'd just add 2X or 3X as many holes in all three plates of your gap enclosure, and test the system.

For your MMC, be careful of mounting the capacitors directly to the surface of a plastic sheet, with holes drilled for the leads. I've seen several MMC failures due to surface tracking across the plastic, probably caused by residue from the soldering flux, sweaty fingerprints, dust, etc. I prefer to mount the capacitors slightly elevated above the board surface using "turret standoffs". These may be hard to find, so you could use any type of insulating spacer (ceramic standoff insulators, short segments of plastic tuning, nylon spacers, etc). In any case, leave planty of spacing between leads that have a large potential difference across them, and after assembly carefully clean everything using isopropyl alcohol.

A few questions for you:
1. What is the gap width that your static gap assembly is currently set to, as shown in your photos?
2. Is the gap spacing adjustable?
3. What are the two objects shown on the LH side of the "black spray paint" photos? The NSTs are obvious, but I can't determine what the other items are.

Here are a few photos of small MMcs using the standoff construction method:


Regards,
Herr Zapp
S

014uf

014uf Edge

Up


Herr Zapp
Yes it is gold anodized housing.

For my spark gap i collapsed after i read that but i understande your explanation very well. When i get back i will rework it and add more holes.

Suddenly pops out of my mind. What if i add a pipe from the exhaust to the electrodes? Will it work? Just an idea.
On the other hand i have a synchronous shaded pole motor. 220 volts 60 hertz 2000 rpm. Can i use that to build rotary spark gap? At first the reason why i didnt build rotary spark gap is because i ordered the capacitors already and have a low budget. Im a college student. The mmc chart says that i need 0.0227uF for rotary spark gap. If i use 0.015uF as my primary tank using rotary spark gap will it work?

For your questions
1. Gap width total is 0.25 inch.
Electrodes are 1 inch diameter 4 inch in length.
2. Yes it is adjustable.
3. What do you mean? If your talking about the one with the newspaper, those are top covers of nst. If the one with the home made capacitor thats my primary runner.

For my mmc. Im still waiting for it to arrive. I will take all your advices on designing my mmc.
Thank you very much.
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Herr Zapp
Tue Jul 07 2009, 12:51AM
Herr Zapp Registered Member #480 Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
Eniyuki -

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "what if I add a pipe from the exhaust to the electrodes". Do you mean make it into a closed-loop system, with the air constantly recirculating from the exhaust back in to the inlet? This would be a bad idea, the intent is to flush the hot ionized air out of the spark gap and replace it with cool, un-ionized air. I'd just add some more ventilation holes, and run your spark gap "as-is" for your initial testing.

Your answers:
1. OK, .25" should be fine for initial tests.
2. Good, you may decide to make some adjustments later to see how total gap width affects performance.
3. OK, I didn't notice that the top covers were removed from the NST housings.

Have you calculated the primary-secondary coupling coefficient ("K factor") that your primary will provide? That is another variable that can have a large influence on coil performance. From your photos, it looks like the plane of the primary coil may be quite a bit lower than the bottom turn of your secondary, which would yield a low coupling factor. Coupling factors of between .12 and .15 are typical values for spark-gap coils. If you design-in some way that you can raise and lower either the primary or the secondary, it will be easier to find the "sweet spot" during tuning. Adjustment increments of .25 inch are fine. Use MandK, JAVATC, or another Tesla coil design tool to calculate your coil's K.

Regards,
Herr Zapp
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eniyuki
Wed Jul 08 2009, 06:59AM
eniyuki Registered Member #2148 Joined: Tue Jun 02 2009, 02:22AM
Location:
Posts: 62
Herr Zapp wrote ...

Eniyuki -

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "what if I add a pipe from the exhaust to the electrodes". Do you mean make it into a closed-loop system, with the air constantly recirculating from the exhaust back in to the inlet? This would be a bad idea, the intent is to flush the hot ionized air out of the spark gap and replace it with cool, un-ionized air. I'd just add some more ventilation holes, and run your spark gap "as-is" for your initial testing.

Your answers:
1. OK, .25" should be fine for initial tests.
2. Good, you may decide to make some adjustments later to see how total gap width affects performance.
3. OK, I didn't notice that the top covers were removed from the NST housings.

Have you calculated the primary-secondary coupling coefficient ("K factor") that your primary will provide? That is another variable that can have a large influence on coil performance. From your photos, it looks like the plane of the primary coil may be quite a bit lower than the bottom turn of your secondary, which would yield a low coupling factor. Coupling factors of between .12 and .15 are typical values for spark-gap coils. If you design-in some way that you can raise and lower either the primary or the secondary, it will be easier to find the "sweet spot" during tuning. Adjustment increments of .25 inch are fine. Use MandK, JAVATC, or another Tesla coil design tool to calculate your coil's K.

Regards,
Herr Zapp

Yes i think it was a bad idea though. Well, my k is 0.131. In my design, i made another runner which can hold 12 turns of primary winding and much bigger now in terms of height and length compared to the first which it can hold only 9 turns. And another is that my base platform can be adjusted up and down for better coupling. Double deck room for nsts,mmc,filter etc.

Is there a minimum spacing between turns of primary winding? Mine is .15 inch(cannot be adjusted! I already made holes). How bout between primary and secondary? Mine is 1 inch. My primary is 5 degree because of my primary runner. Is it okay if my filter doesnt have mov's? I cant find them locally. Thank you!
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eniyuki
Wed Jul 08 2009, 03:50PM
eniyuki Registered Member #2148 Joined: Tue Jun 02 2009, 02:22AM
Location:
Posts: 62
new runner btw
07072009591
05072009572
07072009593
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Killa-X
Thu Jul 09 2009, 12:31AM
Killa-X Registered Member #1643 Joined: Mon Aug 18 2008, 06:10PM
Location:
Posts: 1039
I like the primary supports, Personally I think the slanted ends look cool. Is it usually hard to fish copper tubing through the wholes? I figured it would be so I tried it a different way...
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Herr Zapp
Thu Jul 09 2009, 01:45AM
Herr Zapp Registered Member #480 Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
Eniyuki -

Your initial coupling factor of .13 should be fine. epecially if you have some means to adjust it.

I have never used MOVs in my Terry filters because I frequently used the filters with various NSTs of different voltages, and I didn't want to "rework" the filter each time. With a properly adjusted 3-ball spark gap at the output side of the filter you should be OK without the MOVs.

On my Terry filters, I actually have TWO 3-ball spark gaps, one at the input side, and one at the output side of the filter. Curiously, during some operating conditions I have seen the spark gaps at the INPUT side of the filter sparking while the gaps at the OUTPUT side were not. (All spark gaps had the same ball diameter, and were carefully set at the same gap distance.)

You may find it harder than you think to get the primary conducter routed through the holes in your primary supports, especially if you secure the supports to the baseplate first. I made a flat spiral primary once using the "feed it through the holes" technique, and I'll NEVER attempt it again. I was using relatively thick primary supports (3/8") and PVC insulated wire, which created more friction in the holes than bare copper tubing will. The first few turns were easy to slip through, but as the wire moved in to the smaller radius holes, the friction became extreme, even with everything "lubricated" with soapy water.

A more common (and MUCH easier to assemble) technique to just slot the primary supports so the conductor can be "snapped in" from above.

Remember NOT to try to straighten out your copper tubing in any way. Annealed copper will work-harden to a shocking degree with even a little straightening or bending, and it will become impossible to make a clean, uniform spiral. That's why the "open slot" primary design is so easy to assemble: just have someone hold the coil of copper tubing slightly above the primary supports, and guide the free end down into the slots.

Also, it looks like the hole locations in your primary supports are identical for all the supports. This would be OK if your primary was a series of concentric circles, but it is in fact a spiral. Each hole in each primary support should be offset slightly to allow for the "pitch" of the spiral (each support's holes offset by primary pitch/number of supports). Each support needs to have a unique identification mark so you can position them in the correct sequence before you start installing the primary conductor.


Regards,
Herr Zapp
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eniyuki
Thu Jul 09 2009, 05:02AM
eniyuki Registered Member #2148 Joined: Tue Jun 02 2009, 02:22AM
Location:
Posts: 62
Herr Zapp wrote ...

Eniyuki -

Your initial coupling factor of .13 should be fine. epecially if you have some means to adjust it.

I have never used MOVs in my Terry filters because I frequently used the filters with various NSTs of different voltages, and I didn't want to "rework" the filter each time. With a properly adjusted 3-ball spark gap at the output side of the filter you should be OK without the MOVs.

On my Terry filters, I actually have TWO 3-ball spark gaps, one at the input side, and one at the output side of the filter. Curiously, during some operating conditions I have seen the spark gaps at the INPUT side of the filter sparking while the gaps at the OUTPUT side were not. (All spark gaps had the same ball diameter, and were carefully set at the same gap distance.)

You may find it harder than you think to get the primary conducter routed through the holes in your primary supports, especially if you secure the supports to the baseplate first. I made a flat spiral primary once using the "feed it through the holes" technique, and I'll NEVER attempt it again. I was using relatively thick primary supports (3/8") and PVC insulated wire, which created more friction in the holes than bare copper tubing will. The first few turns were easy to slip through, but as the wire moved in to the smaller radius holes, the friction became extreme, even with everything "lubricated" with soapy water.

A more common (and MUCH easier to assemble) technique to just slot the primary supports so the conductor can be "snapped in" from above.

Remember NOT to try to straighten out your copper tubing in any way. Annealed copper will work-harden to a shocking degree with even a little straightening or bending, and it will become impossible to make a clean, uniform spiral. That's why the "open slot" primary design is so easy to assemble: just have someone hold the coil of copper tubing slightly above the primary supports, and guide the free end down into the slots.

Also, it looks like the hole locations in your primary supports are identical for all the supports. This would be OK if your primary was a series of concentric circles, but it is in fact a spiral. Each hole in each primary support should be offset slightly to allow for the "pitch" of the spiral (each support's holes offset by primary pitch/number of supports). Each support needs to have a unique identification mark so you can position them in the correct sequence before you start installing the primary conductor.


Regards,
Herr Zapp

Ill keep that in mind.
Bout my runner
Well,i think that too, im lazy so i didnt calculate the pitch of each runner. Even though i calculated it, it will not become accurate because i dont have proper tools to do it. My real plan is to have a snap in runner but before i do that il try first the putting through hole. Before i secure my runner to the base, i.ll install first the primary to the supports so that i can adjust it .

Btw, u didnt give me advice about my plan on my synchronous motor that i will be used in buiding my my rotary spark gap p
Thanks!
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Herr Zapp
Thu Jul 09 2009, 09:17PM
Herr Zapp Registered Member #480 Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
Eniyuki -

As far as trying to use a small "shaded-pole" motor to drive a synchronous RSG, I wouldn't waste the time. Shaded-pole motors have low starting torque, and are designed for very low inertia loads (like fans, etc). Although there have been posts on 4HV showing that people have modified shaded-pole motors so that they do run in synchronous mode, I've never seen a well-designed, carefully-constructed SRSG actually running while powered by a shaded-pole motor.

I'd wait until you can find a larger conventional AC induction motor that could be modified for salient-pole operation and be capable of driving a 10" diameter (or larger) G-10 or phenolic disk.

Regards,
Herr Zapp
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eniyuki
Sun Jul 12 2009, 04:22AM
eniyuki Registered Member #2148 Joined: Tue Jun 02 2009, 02:22AM
Location:
Posts: 62
PICS UPDATED!
new items fabricated. cuz its weekends!

terry filter, no MOVs
Nstfilter
11072009615
11072009620
11072009623
testing testing
11072009624

bottom base, support. for components.
12072009625
12072009626

attaching primary winding at the moment...
seeyou guys! ;D

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