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Proud Mary

Wed Jul 08 2009, 01:45AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

It seems to me that our problems begin and end with the categories, past, present and future.

As an example and illustration only, having conceived a category of futurity, we have then populated it with every conceivable thing from mathematical abstraction to the imaginative re-ordering of human society.

Yet not one single scrap of this notional futurity exists in any moment I shall call now,

Without even one particle of physical evidence to lend weight to the notion of futurity, futurity is exposed as an extra-rational belief, perhaps as even a type of doctrine.

MinorityCarrier

Wed Jul 08 2009, 05:55AM

Registered Member #2123 Joined: Sat May 16 2009, 03:10AM
Location: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 312

If I were to hurl a rock at the head of another individual, it would hit him in the future (if he chose not to dodge it). My and His experience of the past and the "Now" allows both of us to predict the future, to a certain extent, and know the rock aimed true will hit him, in the future. I know of no case where a rock thus thrown true, teleported away, dropped out of this universe's space-time, etc. and did not hit it's mark. But that doesn't invalidate the argument that its possible to teleport or drop out of space-time.

However, that argument and your argument lie in the realm of metaphysical idealism. Your logic may be flawless, but it is not real. Reality is what we have and all we have. Is reality a 'particle of physical evidence'? I don't know, but if you doubt that is proof of futurity, than conduct numerous experiments having someone throw a rock at you, don't you dodge it, and report your findings.

Because we can trace the progress of a thing in the past and observe it now, we can know it has a future. Our interpretatation of reality, our experience, is all we have, and it's all we'll ever have. I suggest that evolution itself is based upon past experience successfully predicting the future, and I also suggest that's no extra-rational belief, it's a reality too.

BTW, I think the Victorian argument was that 1000 angels can dance on the head of a pin, or at least that's what I think I remember James Burke saying. Good man, he.

Carbon_Rod

Wed Jul 08 2009, 06:34AM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

MinorityCarrier wrote ...

If I were to hurl a rock at the head of another individual, it would hit him in the future (if he chose not to dodge it).

Assuming you are not adjusting your trajectory for gravity or wind resistance I welcome your attempt at 1000 paces. Again, assuming space-time is locally flat for all problems is not sufficient.
Relativity does characterize similar problems more accurately. Note most stars one sees no longer exist by the time the observer witnesses the starlight. And a rock arriving at the exact position even may discover the observed target may be unaware of the projectile, moved, and died of old age. For a clear explanation, ask an orbital trajectory planner how much extra fuel is usually available to correctly hit a moving rock.

MinorityCarrier wrote ...

BTW, I think the Victorian argument was that 1000 angels can dance on the head of a pin, or at least that's what I think I remember James Burke saying. Good man, he.

Indeed, it is perhaps a moral man without integrity in scientific opinion that provides arbitrary data.

Proud Mary

Wed Jul 08 2009, 09:17AM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

MinorityCarrier wrote ...

If I were to hurl a rock at the head of another individual, it would hit him in the future (if he chose not to dodge it). My and His experience of the past and the "Now" allows both of us to predict the future, to a certain extent, and know the rock aimed true will hit him, in the future. I know of no case where a rock thus thrown true, teleported away, dropped out of this universe's space-time, etc. and did not hit it's mark. But that doesn't invalidate the argument that its possible to teleport or drop out of space-time.

Setting to one side the violent metaphors, it seems to me that you have added a property or quality of intentionality to your case. Moreover, what you began with a breath of Reason quickly fell asunder into science phantasy - the language of Captain Kirk whispered so often in the credulous ear that mere fancies such as 'teleport' lifted from the world of Peter Pan are re-branded as 'science'

Now as for entangled photons,...

Dr. Slack

Wed Jul 08 2009, 11:07AM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Minority Carrier wrote:

Because we can trace the progress of a thing in the past and observe it now, we can know it has a future.

I don't see how that is the case that I can know. I know (to the extent that that is possible) that in the past the rock was at certain places, and in the present here it is now. If I project that path into the future using whatever brand of mechanics is suitable for the purpose, and it intersects my head, then I will get out of the way if I can, by instinct if not by careful calculation. This is not because I know it will hit me, but that I strongly suspect it will. Actually, those sorts of suspicions have rarely been wrong in the past, and I think that most of the errors were down to prior path estimation error. My pedantic downgrading of knowledge to suspicion is not due to these past measurement errors, but due to the fact that conservation of energy, momentum etc are still not proven, however many times they have not been found to fail. I run my life *as if* they are true, I study and mortgage like the sun will rise tomorrow, I would be very dissapointed if it didn't, but I still don't know.

Steve Conner

Wed Jul 08 2009, 05:49PM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

Dr. Slack wrote ...

"It's too late, I can't believe that stuff now, but if I'd been brought up with it without question, it would have been a lot easier to just do it like some of my friends. You've robbed me of a comfortable belief."

Kids, you can't win.

Tell her what my mum told me: "Would you rather be a happy pig?"

vasil

Wed Jul 08 2009, 06:52PM

Registered Member #229 Joined: Tue Feb 21 2006, 07:33PM
Location: Romania
Posts: 506

Being a happy pig = happy life with no question to answer. Seems that more consciousness = more question that arise and have to be answered. I am guessing that above a critical level, the intelligence become a pain, especially if you dont have dedicate tools to investigate.
The time travel would be discovered probably through a "lab accident", then they will make the theory.

Chris Cristini

Thu Jul 09 2009, 02:42PM

Registered Member #1749 Joined: Fri Oct 10 2008, 02:04AM
Location: Claremont New Hampshire
Posts: 497

What already happened in the past can not be visited the most that's gonna happen is your machine is going to cause some sort of magnetic field or some thing that will make you hallucinate and the future has not happened yet. But by chance someone does figure it out I can only imagine what kind of machine it would be and the technology involved.

HV Enthusiast

Thu Jul 09 2009, 06:53PM

Registered Member #15 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068

Here is a time machine i know to work. Not sure who the manufacturer is.

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