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Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Mates wrote ... On the pictures below is my single iggy (made in 1974) running at 3 Khz powering SGTC. It is definitely not toy Harry
What struck me in reviewing the many ignition coil pages on the web, was a frequent lack of measurements of any kind, and the satisfaction of the authors with subjective impressions and guesses about Zin, fo, Vout, Iout, Ppk, Zout, thermal properties and so on, knowledge of which would be necessary if I were to find new applications for the ignition coil.
That was what I meant when I said that many enthusiasts seem to pass the ignition coil by as if it were a toy.
Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
Dr. Kilovolt wrote ...
I would be surprised if they handled that continuously, for short runs - all right. I can also push a kilowatt through a television transformer under a minute. If you want to test the reliability, you should leave it on at least an hour at full power. If it doesn't burn up, you can conclude the smoke test OK :)
Why do you guys need a device giving 50KV and several hundred watts for hours? I have pretty wild imagination but this goes somehow beyond… Otherwise you right – that presented performance is possible only for short time (approx. 3minutes), but it could be significantly improved by additional active cooling for example…I only presented this to show that buying an expensive iggy might be pointless.
Harry wrote ...
What struck me in reviewing the many ignition coil pages on the web, was a frequent lack of measurements of any kind, and the satisfaction of the authors with subjective impressions and guesses about Zin, fo, Vout, Iout, Ppk, Zout, thermal properties and so on, knowledge of which would be necessary if I were to find new applications for the ignition coil.
That was what I meant when I said that many enthusiasts seem to pass the ignition coil by as if it were a toy.
That was small misunderstanding – I linked your toy comment to the fact of that somebody might think that iggy coil is low-power– toy-like device.
Regarding the subjectivity – yes you right in that but isn’t it mainly because that measuring of these values is pretty difficult for an amateur? My power estimation is based on power-meter (I have one extra power-meter which I sometimes connect in series with the device - giving probably the best integrated power consumption value) minus rough estimation of the losses in the driver and the iggy… I can hardly provide more with my equipment
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Mates wrote ...
Regarding the subjectivity – yes you right in that but isn’t it mainly because that measuring of these values is pretty difficult for an amateur? My power estimation is based on power-meter (I have one extra power-meter which I sometimes connect in series with the device - giving probably the best integrated power consumption value) minus rough estimation of the losses in the driver and the iggy… I can hardly provide more with my equipment
The simplest approach is to rectify the output and read the peak voltage off the reservoir capacitor. An output current curve can then be drawn by placing n resistive loads across the output. Most of the other parameters can be derived from this first observation when one has measured L & R of the primary to deduce t,fo(sec) by incorporating it into an oscillator or other method, and Zout from fo,Rsec. & Cself etc.
An extremely simple, stable, robust and reliable EHT PSU supplying 50kV/1mA DC 24/7 without overheating could be very useful to the man or woman who needs it! We shall see...
Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
wrote ...
Why do you guys need a device giving 50KV and several hundred watts for hours? I have pretty wild imagination but this goes somehow beyond…
Why not? Anyway that's likely what you'd at least have if you built your own transformer from scratch with a ferrite core.
wrote ...
Otherwise you right – that presented performance is possible only for short time (approx. 3minutes), but it could be significantly improved by additional active cooling for example…I only presented this to show that buying an expensive iggy might be pointless.
Convective cooling might help a little bit, but don't forget you are dissipating lots of power in a rather small volume...I don't think you'd gain very much, especially for an epoxy encapsulated coil.
BTW, below is the type of thing I had in mind.
The values I used in the simulation were basically a guess; hopefully they're close to what you'd have with an "average" (not "high performance" ignition coil).
Driving it with 5 khz AC in the circuit shown, for the output shown, CircuitMaker shows about 300 watts dissipated in the windings of each coil.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Good-looking circuit, Mr Smith!
When all's said and done, the ever-popular LOPT is a flimsy and erratic device compared with the robustness and dependability of the auto ignition coil, which is why I think it worthwhile exploring its properties and potential ( ha ha!) in a more systematic way than I have seen elsewhere.
I wouldn't spend my own money on one of these new-fangled ignition coils, since, aside from its robustness and dependability, one of the best reasons for choosing the ignition coil is its very favourable cash-to-kV ratio.
If much money had to be handed over for just a single unit, one might be better off choosing something better suited to the needs of the application.
Registered Member #1025
Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
jpsmith123 wrote ...
Why not? Anyway that's likely what you'd at least have if you built your own transformer from scratch with a ferrite core.
That’s a stupid reaction JP! Why not is an argument of a small kid or mentally not very bright person... Regarding your scratch based easy to make transformer giving several hundreds of watts at 50KV – ha ha ha… Show it, tell us how you did it ideally in specialized thread - otherwise keep this big- muscle talk for yourself.
It is not meant as an offence – I only needed to react on obvious demagogic emptiness in your reaction
Harry wrote ...
An extremely simple, stable, robust and reliable EHT PSU supplying 50kV/1mA DC 24/7 without overheating could be very useful to the man or woman who needs it! We shall see...
50W from iggy 24/7 is not a problem at all. But than we are back in the toy-like-scale I always use the rectified mains (300V) for the primary to get the real iggy features .
Anyway, I have a suggestion Harry - it seems you have a lot of theoretical and practical IGGY background so why not to start a special thread about an iggy based HV power supply. I can share some of my designs and hopefully the other guys here also...It could be nice add for the HvWiki too.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Mates wrote ...
Anyway, I have a suggestion Harry - it seems you have a lot of theoretical and practical IGGY background so why not to start a special thread about an iggy based HV power supply. I can share some of my designs and hopefully the other guys here also...It could be nice add for the HvWiki too.
Aha, Mates, no I do not have any special understanding of them, which is why I am trying to find out!
But I do like your idea of joining up to make as best an investigation of them as we can with our simple instruments. Something so robust, so dependable, so tolerant to hostile thermal cycling and which is even waterproof in a shielded steel case is worth investigating to see what it might do when its optimum safe working area has been determined.
If a pair in antiphase could develop a rectified and smoothed O/P 50kV/2.5ma for 24/7 without heating, or stressing the insulation, one would have a very useful PSU which was good value for the money.
Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
wrote ...
That’s a stupid reaction JP!
Coming from you, chump, I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.
wrote ...
Why not is an argument of a small kid or mentally not very bright person...
Well to the extent that's true, I guess we can conclude it doesn't take much to show you up, Goober.
wrote ...
Regarding your scratch based easy to make transformer giving several hundreds of watts at 50KV – ha ha ha… Show it, tell us how you did it ideally in specialized thread - otherwise keep this big- muscle talk for yourself.
LOL! Well that's not exactly what I stated or implied, chumpy, but, being that it's your strawman, knock your socks off.
In any case, I suppose nobody should be surprised that an ignorant, arrogant asshole such as yourself knows nothing about a cheap, readily available, ferroxcube U100/57/25-3C90 U core, for example, which can easily be driven at 20 to 30 volts/turn and which, with its large winding area is thus easily capable of several kw. In fact, using this core, it would be almost impossible to NOT build a high power transformer.
wrote ...
It is not meant as an offence – I only needed to react on obvious demagogic emptiness in your reaction
Thanks for the clarification. It almost seemed like you were trying to insult me. Likewise, please don't construe anything I've said as an insult.
Harry wrote ...
Good-looking circuit, Mr Smith!
When all's said and done, the ever-popular LOPT is a flimsy and erratic device compared with the robustness and dependability of the auto ignition coil, which is why I think it worthwhile exploring its properties and potential ( ha ha!) in a more systematic way than I have seen elsewhere.
I agree 100%.
wrote ...
I wouldn't spend my own money on one of these new-fangled ignition coils, since, aside from its robustness and dependability, one of the best reasons for choosing the ignition coil is its very favourable cash-to-kV ratio.
For the "average" experimenter, that certainly makes sense.
Especially when you can get something like the following on ebay.
(That'a a nice looking coil...easy to mount, easy to connect to, etc.).
wrote ...
If much money had to be handed over for just a single unit, one might be better off choosing something better suited to the needs of the application.
One of those MSD coils might be just what I want...the problem is that without more information from the manufacturer it's a gamble. I think I'll watch ebay for a while and see if any used or NOS MSD coils become available. In the mean time I'm going to try again to wind a HV secondary that I'm happy with.
Registered Member #39190
Joined: Sat Oct 26 2013, 09:15AM
Location: Boise National Forest
Posts: 65
jpsmith123 wrote ... BTW, below is the type of thing I had in mind.
Did you ever build this?? Is there a follow-up thread somewhere?
BTW: Having more money than sense, I've accumulated over the years just about every coil that Mallory, Accel, and MSD ever made. I'd like to be able to present here all sorts of data from experiments I performed with the various coils. Unfortunately I haven't obtained that data or performed those experiments. Yet. But I'm making up for lost time. :)
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MSD Ignition Coil #8251
ha ha!) in a more systematic way than I have seen elsewhere. 
