Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 63
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
All today's birthdays', congrats!
Barry (70)
Snowcat (37)
wylie (43)


Next birthdays
02/03 Bauerb2 (35)
02/04 Fabio (45)
02/04 Corey (34)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: Tesla Coils
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

12V primary voltage SSTC's

Move Thread LAN_403
Andri
Sat May 23 2009, 01:42AM
Andri Registered Member #1533 Joined: Wed Jun 11 2008, 02:13PM
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
Posts: 46
I'd be surprised to see something like that work.

Why this will not work:
  1. That gate driver will not bring the GE voltage of the upper devices (in the H-bridge) to the level needed.
  2. Alternatively to #1: The upper devices should be P-type.
  3. For such a small coil, the resonant frequency is probably way higher than any IGBT can handle.


To explain point #1 further, the current through an IGBT is controlled by the GE voltage (GS for FETs) and what you appear to be controlling is the voltage between gate and ground. This is fine for the devices of which emitter is connected to ground but it will not work for those of which the emitter is connected to the load. The most common solution for this problem is a GDT (there is an excellent article on the wiki on GDTs).

Going on to point #2: As I said before, the GS voltage controls the device. Placing a P-type device in place of the upper devices, with source facing Vcc eliminates the problem discussed in point #1. For better understanding of this principle you should study push-pull output stages (google). Mind you, there are no P-type IGBTs available. You only get P-type FETs.

One of the benefits of a low-voltage design is that you can use P-type devices (which are otherwise hard to get, expensive, have bad current rating, etc.). So you should use that. There isn't even a reason to use IGBTs in a design like this. As you go lower and lower in voltage rating the current rating of FETs goes up and on-resistance goes down. Another benefit of using FETs is that they switch much faster and thus your coil might even work in the MHz range which eliminates the problem of point #3.
I suggest you use IRF540 (n-type) and IRF9540 (p-type). They are a complimentary pair of HEXFETs from International Rectifier.
The option of using a GDT or a level shifter still remains though.

Now, you're only making things harder by using an antenna. Just use a function generator to begin with. You can try adding an antenna later when you have sparks flying.
Back to top
RichM
Sat May 23 2009, 10:06AM
RichM Registered Member #950 Joined: Sat Aug 11 2007, 02:11PM
Location:
Posts: 8
Ok, I see what you mean. I did try with a function generator and it seemed to switch ok. I guess the current was lower than excpected due to one device in each pair not being fully turned on. I did also notice uneven heating. Now I see why!

I was using IGBT's because I read that they have a linear increase in temperature with current rather than an increase proportional to the curret squared. IT should be mostly ZVS anyway so I'll try MOSFETS.

Just curious.... Is it possible to use an IC such as a L6384E to drive each pair in a full bridge? This has a gigh and low side driver.
Back to top
LithiumLord
Sat May 23 2009, 12:30PM
LithiumLord Registered Member #1739 Joined: Fri Oct 03 2008, 10:05AM
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 261
Well, if there is no GDT or other couplers (I thought you missed those out on the drawing alone in order to simplify the blueprint) you surely need one.
As for the driver you mentioned - it's pretty nice to use as a deadtime generator, however the bootstrap feed along with such a low gate current and unipolar drive isn't a very good thing for SSTC usage. I'm sure it will not do much harm on 12v though, but the frequency will be too high for it. For the driver design you can take a look through my project thread - those are pretty good for high switching rates as are both capable of driving higher currents, 8A per gate in my setup - and even more in case you use a higher-rated driver IC and use a bipolar drive mode unlike most halfbridge/H-bridge integrated drivers do. Also they will provide you with enough headspace for higher bridge voltage.

IGBTs with no ZCS and no bipolar drive are not a way to go for sure, watch this Link2 to see how during an older test run an open-loop unipolar driver with an H-bridge of IRG4PC50W's performed in a coil that used to work perfectly with a bridge of IRFP260's and now runs off-wall with a feedback driver and bipolar gate drive with 500v FETs without a single failure ;)
Also, do not forget about the IGBT safe range curve - without ZCS running off 12v you can easily fry a 600v IGBT - even faster then off-wall.
Back to top
Andri
Sat May 23 2009, 06:06PM
Andri Registered Member #1533 Joined: Wed Jun 11 2008, 02:13PM
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
Posts: 46
Yes, you can use an L6384E or any other gate driver with sufficient current ratings and a level shifter.
A high-voltage bridge driver such as the L6384E shifts the input voltage (which is relative to ground) so that it becomes relative to the HV rails (which aren't particularly HV in your case, though).

When choosing between IGBTs and MOSFETs you also need to think about switching losses. Switching losses of MOSFETs are negligible in comparison to conduction losses but switching losses are a significant factor in the power dissipation of IGBTs.

Here's a picture I drew yesterday to compare the IRFP460 with an IGBT with "similar" ratings.
1243101311 1533 FT69883 Irfp460vsirg4bc30w

As you can see the IGBT becomes a better choice anywhere above 25A (continuous) but I doubt you will be going anywhere above 10A (continuous) with your coil. But that's not the point I wanted to get across with this picture (not at least in this post). What I wanted to show you is how the power dissipation of IGBTs and MOSFETs depends on current and frequency. This is universal for all devices.
Back to top

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.