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4hv.org :: Forums :: High Voltage
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Minimum spark gap voltage

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Backyard Skunkworks
Sun Oct 19 2008, 06:13PM Print
Backyard Skunkworks Registered Member #1262 Joined: Fri Jan 25 2008, 05:22AM
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 451
I was wondering how small you can make a spark gap, and how low of a voltage, before it refuses to fire. I know about the 1kV/mm approximation, but it doesn't look like it holds up for very small gaps, as 300V can't seem to arc over 300 microns.

So basically I was wondering about the operation and theory of very small spark gaps.
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rp181
Sun Oct 19 2008, 06:58PM
rp181 Registered Member #1062 Joined: Tue Oct 16 2007, 02:01AM
Location:
Posts: 1529
the thing about small spark gaps is that once it fires, the pit caused has more affect then with a large gap.
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Sulaiman
Sun Oct 19 2008, 08:31PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3141
Have a look here Link2
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Dr. Dark Current
Sun Oct 19 2008, 08:44PM
Dr. Dark Current Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
"For example, at 1 Torr... If 500 Volts were applied, it would not be sufficient to arc at the 2.85 mm distance, but would arc at a 5.7 mm distance."

Now that's totally wierd amazed

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Antonio
Sun Oct 19 2008, 10:48PM
Antonio Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644
I hope that the original experimenters took care to remove dust from the air...
I would like to see a theoretical explanation for this weird behavior.
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PanosB_GR
Mon Oct 20 2008, 11:01AM
PanosB_GR Registered Member #1680 Joined: Fri Sept 05 2008, 04:19PM
Location: Greece
Posts: 43
The dielectric strength of clean air is 30kV/cm, but the thing is that many parameters affect the final "seen" strength of a given gap, and that is humidity, air pressure, surface defects, surface contaminants, geometry of electrodes etc.

Small gaps are more likely to break under much the same voltage, but the localized geometry and surface condition (field enhancement factor) plays an important role on the final strength... Longer gaps are more affected by the medium condition and might seem macroscopically more unstable.

I guess with small spark gaps, you have to make them mechanically steady, clean, with small rounded tips, and out of a hard metal so you can get repeatability. And of course you have to somehow calculate the electric field distribution over the electrodes, either with some software, or with approximations on typical geometries (sphere-sphere, sphere-plane, pin-plane gaps), if you want to get some numbers on the needed gap length...

Apparently, there is a minimun in the pressure curve (Pashen Curve), that a gap arcs under very low voltages, and that is the glow discharge area, around 1 torr or sthing.
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LithiumLord
Mon Oct 20 2008, 12:37PM
LithiumLord Registered Member #1739 Joined: Fri Oct 03 2008, 10:05AM
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 261
PanosB_GR wrote ...

The dielectric strength of clean air is 30kV/cm
...based on the linear approximation for the higher voltage ranges ;)

watch this!
ps sorry for the russian pic, the air curve is the one that ends higher then the other ones, the X axis is pd [cm*Torr], Y - voltage in volts.
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Dr. Dark Current
Mon Oct 20 2008, 04:05PM
Dr. Dark Current Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
PanosB_GR wrote ...

The dielectric strength of clean air is 30kV/cm..
with needle electrodes it's much less, actually when you start getting into several tens of kv, it could be as small as 5kV/cm.

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DrZoidberg
Wed Oct 22 2008, 04:24AM
DrZoidberg Registered Member #350 Joined: Mon Mar 27 2006, 05:14PM
Location:
Posts: 106
Dr. Kilovolt wrote ...

"For example, at 1 Torr... If 500 Volts were applied, it would not be sufficient to arc at the 2.85 mm distance, but would arc at a 5.7 mm distance."

Now that's totally wierd amazed

That is due to the way a spark forms in air.
It has to do with free electrons. The process is called avalanche breakdown.
Link2
At very small distances electrons don't have enough space to accelerate to the required speeds.
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Linas
Wed Oct 22 2008, 04:39AM
Linas Registered Member #1143 Joined: Sun Nov 25 2007, 04:55PM
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 721
i know men, who make SGTC without HV transformer, he use rotary spark-gap, like 1mm distance, direct from 220V ac line, whit large choke, spark is 1-2m long amazed
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